30-Jun-2009, 01:14 PM
Original Article published here: http://www.foosball.com/forum/index.php?topic=2704.0
TABLE OF CONTENTS
PART 1
WHAT TABLE SHOULD I BUY?
BUY A TORNADO COIN-OP – costs from $350-$1175
WHERE DO I BUY A USED TORNADO COIN-OP?
PART 2
TORNADO COIN-OP HISTORY AND USED TABLE PRICING
The Brown Marble to The Grey Marble
PART 3
TORNADO COIN-OP HISTORY AND USED TABLE PRICING
T2000 Metal Wrap to the 2009 T3000
PART 4
KEYS TO BUYING A USED COIN-OP
PART 5
AFTER THE PURCHASE - basic TABLE MAINTENANCE
PART 1 , WHAT TABLE SHOULD I BUY?
Bottom line answer is buy a Torando coin-op unless you have a specific background on a certain table. In the US, there are only 3 table manufactures that are part of a serious discussion.
First, a quick word on the other 2 manufactures.
Bonzini is a French made table with limited distribution in the US, some small charity tournament run in the southeast by Bonzini USA. This table is expensive, hard to find, has small distribution in the US, and plays VERY differently from the primary US table Tornado.
http://www.bonziniusa.com/
Warrior is a US owned company and they are partnered up with IFP (Independent Foosball Promotions). IFP uses Warrior exclusively and IFP runs the largest (money and number of events) foosball “tour” in the US and that doesn’t look to change any time soon.
Warrior is less than a year old (as of 6/29/09) and they started with only one table, a home model. This table plays well and has a good design for playability and they have what I believe to be the best foosball ever made. The two main reasons I can’t recommend them as a primary table purchase is because they don’t have a coin-op and their home model doesn’t hold up well enough.
Warrior is working on fixing the table first run short-comings and will be coming out with a coin-op version soon and when those things happen, I will re-evaluate.
BUY A TORNADO COIN-OP – range in price from $350-$1175
No sturdier or more reliable table ever made in the US. Tournament players may argue about what table, past or present, has the “best” playing style or which table is “most complete” but no one will argue that the Tornado coin-op (T2000 and T3000) has as good or better build quality/durability as any table EVER made.
If you are thinking, “I will buy a Tornado but don’t want to spend the money for an expensive coin-op”….plain and simple, it is a waste of money to buy a non-coin. Too long a discussion to go into here, you can look it up in previous postings.
WHERE DO I BUY A USED TORNADO COIN-OP?
CRAIG’S LIST: For the Brown Marble – the Metal wrapped T2000, Craig’s list is the best place to find a used coin-op bar none…make your search on Craig’s list as far away as you are willing to drive. You can sometimes find them on eBay but shipping adds $120-$175 to the sale price.
TORNADOFOOSBALL.COM: The simplest and most reliable thing you can do if you can spend $1200 for the state-of-the-art table is you can buy a “tournament used” table (which is like brand new) for $1150-$1175 from Charles MacIntosh at http://tornadofoosb.powweb.com/store/index.html
Or call him at 336-210-1194. Highly recommended if you can afford it, especially right now with the T3000 as it looks like this may be the best table Tornado has made.
PART 2 ,TORNADO COIN-OP HISTORY AND USED TABLE PRICING
PART 2
Brown Marble - all at least 12 years old - $350-$550
oldest versions have the large metal feet and are considered the most (some debate now with the newest complete change T3000) solid consistent of all the tables
Most common have the current smaller plastic foot - I am not aware of any other substantial difference between this and the large foot except the feet...this was my favorite table but the new T3000 is very close in playability but considering the age and time "in the field" the Brwn Mrbl is still the best table Tornado has made but if the T3000 stands the test of time, it will be a toss up on which is best and the decision will be which play style you prefer
so, if you are looking for an inexpensive used table, this is your best bet...wide swing in quality because of how long they have been out there so this requires patients and careful shopping
Blonde – 1995?-2000? - $400-$575
consistent all the same, plays much different than the Brown Marble...
Cherry - to end of 2002 - $450 - $650
Fastest of all the tables and because of this can be a challenge with ball control..
- I own this table, ball control is difficult but the speed is fun...play is improved with heat-treated rods but it doesn't really fix the control issues...however, if you can play on this table, you can play on any table...everything is easier after playing on this which in my mind makes it a good practice table
GREY MARBLES - $600-$800
Overall, even with the quirks, this all the confusing talk below about manufacturing changes, this is a really nice table.
30th Anniversary Grey Marble - 2003 release, only out during 2003
This table really starts a wild string of table changes which are hard to document and follow but let me take a stab at it.
The Merkel heat-treated rods were introduced at this time...in my opinion the best table change I have seen on any table at any time - only rival now is the Warrior ball...the rods were very smooth, were almost unbendable, and required far less lube to keep them at their best
Issue 1: First tables released did not all have Merkel rods, there was a mix...some tables had none, some had some, some had all...this run of tables was fairly short so I don't think there were enough made at the end to be sure when ALL Merkel rods were available
Playing surface was a little different and many liked this table because it created extra control due to the surface change...
Issue 2: Before this run was done, the man changes began and spilled over to the beginning of the Grey Marble runs...there was an attempt to make a more durable cheaper man using Nylon (Lets call this Nylon 1) (pretty darn ironic since the Tornado man was already super durable)...Nylon set up differently in the molds so it created seam issues on the side of the man which impacted tic tacking and some had dips in the front and/or back of the foot - This first Nylon man was had a dull finish and is easy to pick out on a table,
They didn't give up on Nylon right away and so began Nylon 2 where they tried a different chemistry mix...still very inconsistent mold issues...this man is easy to pick out because it is very shinny ...
Both Nylon men were short-lived but still on the 30th and early Grey Marble to follow, there ended up being tables with some or all of the original man, Nylon 1, and/or Nylon 2 men
Grey Marble - 2004 to end of 2006 beginning 2007
Different playing surface than the 30th
Earliest versions had mix of men but were consistent with Merkel rods but less than a year in they had gone back to the original man and all Merkel rods...this was the best of the Grey Marbles...good playing solid table
Handles – went from shape which was well known and long running to wood with deeper dip, then to plastic with less dip, which was soundly rejected and short-lived, back to the original wood less dip
Rod - Part way through the life of this version Tornado dropped Merkel because they thought the rod was too expensive and went with an imported heat-treated rod...still better than the original rod but nothing near as good as the Merkel rods (Merkel is the last name of the person making them...made here in the US just for this application...Warrior is considering this in coming competition models)
Merkel rod side thought: How good is this rod? Played on a Brown Marble bar table which saw much non-fooser abuse...every bar table with non-merkel rods is going to have a bent 2 rod, just a matter of time and eventually the 3 rod as well...the owner of this table, without knowing it, replaced the 2 rods with Merkel and we played on that table for OVER 2 YEARS without the 2 rods ever bending...need I say more?
PART 3, T2000 Metal Wrap - release 2007 to Worlds 2008 warped $750-$900
PART 3
T2000 Metal Wrap - release 2007 to Worlds 2008 warped $750-$900 - assuming surface is NOT nor has ever been
Okay, this was a good table outside of not having Merkel rods but instead the imported heat-treated rods...no surface, man, or handle changes during the run BUT
Toward the end of the run and around the same time two important negative things happened...one is that they made a change in the production of the playing surface and there are a bunch of these tables with warped surfaces...if you get one of these warped surface tables you will own the worst Tornado ever made…I have had the misfortune of having to play on one of these and it ranks with the worst foosball experiences I can remember...EVER! there is no excuse and no fixing it...
The warped playing surface tables showed up at Tornado tournaments to the dismay of many...there is a "fix" suggested out there were you put blocks under the top to push up the surface (available on other board)...I won't get into details but a warped playing surface on any table in foosball is unacceptable PERIOD...the playing surface needs to be replaced by the manufacture...this is bad enough it should have a recall. Note: Tornado agrees and will work with people but you have to replace the surface yourself and this is not easy for most people. Best not to get one to begin with.
The other tragedy is the change on the latest models, start of 2008 I believe, of the score markers to the new plastic CRAP CRAP CRAP...it may be hard to tell but I don't like these
Now, with that said, I have a friend (BigBrewGuy on this forum) who has a metal wrapped table with the original score markers and a solid flat playing surface and it is a very nice table and plays really well…he got lucky
It was during this time that Tornado started trying to make some positive changes...they say the warped top issue is fixed...it appears now as of this date, 6/29/09, that the issue is resolved on new table production and that all T3000 (true T3000's) have the issue fixed...any metal wrapped table before the release of the T3000 is at least suspect. Not all are bad, you just need to make sure yours is not if you buy the metal wrapped T2000.
Okay, this is tricky, because there have been a number of changes which took place toward the end of this run moving into the "full meal deal T3000" (I will explain what I mean by this shortly)
Without comment on the motivation or process (and there is a ton), the following are the changes that were decided on
• Bearings: Inside face of bearings made thinner…because the ball could pass behind a man even when the man was flush on the wall…most notable if you did a stick wall pass perfect, not only could you go through the defense even if the man was flat on the wall but it could also go behind your 3 bar when trying to catch it…this change has fixed that issue completely from all reports so far - good change so far
• Man: the foot of the man was changed, not enough in my opinion (more on this in a separate thread)…they were trying to address two things…ball control and hitting a consistent angle which would open the game up with banks and accurate angle shots like should be used on pushkick and pullkcick shots (not limited to this, just any time a consistent angle is needed) - two changes were done to try and make these things happen
Man change 1 - On the face of the "new" man the cross-hatch goes further up to about ¾ of the face of the man instead of stopping at about ½ way
Man change 2 - this plaid pattern did not go all the way to the edge of the man before the man change (like it does on the Warrior man), instead there was, and is, an “edge” something between 1/32 and 1/16 of an inch…very thin but impacting how the ball is struck for angles and control in a pin...this edge was not removed with the new man change but there was an edge change
Man Edge Change - There has been an edge change…in attempt to fix the angle striking issues, that edge has been slightly beveled…so instead of being a right angle with the side of the man, this same line/strip is now on an angle…say from 90 degrees to 45 degrees…I don’t actually think this is a full 45 egrees but rather something in between 90 and 45 degrees, Ed Geer could probably say what they settled on
although in my opinion, they did not make the best decision when changing the mold and should have gone cross-hatch all the way to the edge and taken the curve away and made the front edge a straight edge, the overall change is still positive
• Side-strips, Handles, and Balls - a decision to change these was made at this time too but the changes were not implemented until the T3000 "full meal deal".
T3000 2009 - current
What do I mean by “full meal deal T3000”? Well, there are some late model T2000 metal wrap tables (that have the new CRAPPY plastic score markers) and that seem to have been pawned off as T3000 tables. Some (but not all) of these tables have the Big Tornado and ITSF stickers…see video below on set up of the table Zeke won at Worlds which he calls a T3000
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtFqO5Ng-7s
My local bar was sold this same table (with small stickers) being told it was a T3000…this is the table with the warped surface…This new bar table and the Zeke’s table are NOT true T3000's … Tornado may indeed have tried to sell these tables as T3000's, name or not, they are NOT the “full meal deal” T3000 and really are late run T2000 tables
I think Zeke’s does not have a warped surface and BigBrewGuy has same table with little stickers sans CRAPPY plastic markers...no other difference...T3000? For sure they are NOT.
T3000 2009 - current - $1000-$1175“FULL MEAL DEAL T3000”
This table should have all the changes listed above, men, bearings, CRAPPY score-markers, Big Tornado/ITSF stickers.
In addition to these changes the real T3000 should have a unwarped surface and the following.
Handle Change: Now a softer “plastic” compound same shape as the wood handle above I refer to as “original” handle. It looks something like the plastic handle that Tornado tried during the Grey Marble era but they are a different material, slightly softer, slightly but noticeably smaller, and they do not have the hard edges of the original plastic handle. These factors make this a significant improvement.
Side-Strip: changed to clear strip, slightly wider, which is essentially flat…this is to keep the ball from jumping up after hitting the strip to help facilitate banks and cut ball off the table…trade off is that the ball gets stuck on the wall from time to time
Ball Change: as of 6/29/09 Tornado has settled on a ball and it is slightly darker red, harder, and keeps its scruffy surface longer...it is referred to has the "5 hour tumbled" ball because it has been tumbled for 5 hours to get the surface it has...pretty good ball but I think it is too hard...Tornado isn't showing any signs of changing this ball again any time soon.
1 man goalie table: NOT SHIPPING in US as of 06/29/09 but…???
1 man Goalie?: Announced as the official table to be used at ITSF International Multi-Table Championships in France…hold on to your hats, this one is going to be a wild ride while all the variables, motivations, and practical implementations of this take place. Question about weather the change was “legal” for this tournament, if it would be a conversion kit or permanent table surface change (like Warrior uses), if the change will be permanent, or if the change will be forced in the US this year and/or sometime in the future. For a complete run down of the current public discussion on this (as of 12/26/08) see link below. Read closely AmericanFoosball poster comments, long but very accurate and informed.
PART 4, KEYS TO BUYING A USED COIN-OP
KEYS TO BUYING A USED COIN-OP
When buying a used table, everyone asks what they should look for…
Take or get lots of close up good digital pictures and I or someone on this site can help you determine what you are looking at… If possible, best to visit table in person but either way, these are the things you are looking for.
1. TABLE SURFACE: First and most important is, is the table surface level...no warping...it would be very weird if a BrMrb had warping but don't assume it is okay because it could warp if it sat in a bar long enough and had enough beer spilled on it - this would be a total deal killer
Tornado has only had one manufacturing issue with warped surfaces and that was the Metal wrapped F5/T2000…not all, but many of these tables had warped surfaces…do not buy one of these…long story but bottom line is it is too much hassle to fix and you can easily find a different coin-op without a warped playing surface.
2. GOAL EDGES: Second and probably a deal breaker are the edges on the goals...if they have been hit enough times that they are starting to chip away, we call this a "blown out goal" then you probably want to pass on this one and wait for the next table (there will be more)...it can be fixed but it is very complicated and requires real skill
3. INSIDE PLAYFIELD WALLS: the inside walls (white surface) should be firmly attached, no lifting, pockets, chipping, holes, etc….this like the goal edges and play surface are very hard for an average person to fix and if they are really damaged, should be a deal killer
4. RODS: rods need to all be straight, no bends at all...the seller can tell if the rods are bent but if they aren’t sure, they can spin each and if it wobbles when it spins, its bent...bent rods are not a deal breaker because they aren't too hard to replace but they are $35 each plus shipping so you would want to figure that out into your offer
5. MEN: Cracked or broken men - same as the rods, not a deal breaker but a cost if some need to be replaced difference is cost is much lower impact at $5 each...you will want to get 2 or 3 of each color anyway unless the person has extra with the table
6. COIN MECHANISM: Make sure the coin mechanism is fully working even if you don’t need it for your use because if you ever want to re-sell it, you will want this working, it gives you a bigger audience of buyers. Replacing all the parts in this is well over $100. With that said, it will be very rare you find one that doesn’t work but you should know for sure before buying. If there are problems, figure them out and what it will cost to fix and negotiate selling price or walk away from deal.
7. FEET AND LEGS: Legs aren’t likely to be bad, haven’t seen that many times but the feet need to be in good shape and working (meaning they can thread up and down)...if not, they can be easily replaced, and they are inexpenisve…this should only impact your offer price
8. BALLS: Are there any with the table and what shape...this is the least of the things but good to know because balls are $3 each...just an aside, a ton of people don't like them but if the ball is a genuine Tornado ball but is well used from a bar, I love them because they get very sticky and are good for control especially for a new player...they bounce a little more too but that doesn't bother me...you will not find universal agreement on this point just my opinion for what its worth…most old Tornado balls can be washed and made near like new easily if you want that
PART 5, AFTER THE PURCHASE - basic TABLE MAINTENANCE
AFTER THE PURCHASE - basic TABLE MAINTENANCE
Equipment Needed for Basic Maintenance
• Roll pins 30 cents each: http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net...0-020.html
• Silicone 8 oz bottle $12: http://tornadofoosb.powweb.com/store/page6.html
• Pocket Size $2.50: http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net/fooslube.html
• Bearing Wrench $5.50: http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net...0-049.html
• Roll Pin Punch $5: http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net...0-021.html
If you need to replace any bearings, bumpers, or men, they can be found here
Tornado Parts: http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net/tornado.html
Spare Parts…what should you have on hand.
• 2 or 3 each color man, when you get down to 1, reorder
• 15-20 roll pins, when you get to 5, reorder
• 4 bumpers, when you get down to 1, reorder
• 1 split bearing halves – these don’t go bad almost ever, so one should take care of you for a long time…reorder when you use it
What to do…Clean the table top to bottom...most people use a 50/50 mix of water and 409 cleaner ... I personally was taught many many years ago never to use anything on the playing surface or on the men so I just use hot water and elbow grease...it is the safe way and guarantees you don't leave any foreign substance on the playing surfaces
on the exterior cabinet, legs, and feet the 50/50 works real well
Using a Bearing Wrench, take all your bearings apart and clean any built up gunk from the bearing half's...the first time you do this on a used table, I recommend taking them all off and doing them all at the same time. For ongoing maintenance, just pull take apart the split bearings once or twice a year or whenever you suspect build up…clean at that time one at a time with hot water or use the 50/50 mixture.
A Bearing Wrench usually comes with the table. You can do it without a bearing wrench but it is harder and this is a basic must have table tool.
Bearing Wrench $5.50: http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net...0-049.html
The non-split side of the bearings, the “nut” may be gunky too, they are part of the “bearings”
the ones on the non handle side are easy to remove but if want the bearing nut on this side, you will need to remove handle - make sure you have extra roll pins before beginning this phase of clean up
Roll Pins 30 cents each: http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net...0-020.html
Roll Pin Punch $5 or $9: Did you get a roll pin "punch" with the table? if not, again you NEED one of these...you can use other things like a counter sink to get by but this is made for this application and is worth the investment and is a standard table maintenance tool
here is the punch everyone uses standard with every table sold
Roll Pin Punch $5: http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net...0-021.html
however, recently foosball.com found a big boy version of this which I bought and it is much better, easier to use, I absolutely love it...to me, well worth the difference in price...you can't tell by the pictures but trust me when I say the standard is like a 6 year old and the big one is like a professional NFL linebacker...okay, that may be overstated a little but you get the idea...foosdirect is the only place I have ever seen it
Big Boy "Super Pin Driver" $8.95: http://foosdirectstore.stores.yahoo.net/...river.html
Cleaning the Bearings: Simplest approach is to take them all off (bearing halves and the bearing nut), and soak them in very hot water and a liberal amount of dish soap…let these soak while you scrub the table surface and rods…then go back to the bearings when you are done and wash each one until they are totally clean of build up, rinse with hot of water (as hot as you can stand)…lay them out on a dry cloth to drain/dry
Make sure they are air or hand dried completely before putting them back on the table
After you have all your bearings cleaned and before you replace them, clean the rods really well to remove anything left on them like silicone, beer, Jack Daniels, or other "special" fluids people creatively use to "lube" the rods
Silicone: Hopefully you were given some Silicone but if not you NEED it...I recommend buying a large supply bottle and the small applicator Pocket Size version. The Pocket Size version it is by far the best way to apply silicone and you can use the big bottle to refill the travel size. Silicone should go on rods only, don’t get it on anything else, it is very slick. Apply thin line on each rod from the bumper to the edge of the inside bearing – do this on the near side and far side of the rod.
Turn the rod in circles and pull the rods back and forth gently and slowly at first to evenly distribute the lube on all sides and to not splatter any on the table surface.
8 oz bottle $12 http: //tornadofoosb.powweb.com/store/page6.html
Pocket Size $2.50 http: //foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net/fooslube.html
Ball Care: If you have gotten Tornado balls with your used table or end up with older used Tornado balls, you can bring them back to near new by simply putting them is a sock and throwing them in your washer and wash with soap and hot water. When they are done, throw them in the drier (still in the sock) and dry on hot fully. There are many other methods but this is simple and works surprisingly well.
NOTE ABOUT ON-GOING MATINENANCE
once you have done the complete cleaning, you won't need to put more than an hour a two a year into maintenance to keep your table like new...if you play everyday, wipe the surface once a month or so, clean bearings one hear one there as needed, and lube the rods as needed. Very simple and easy. Every couple years you can do the deep cleaning with all bearings and so forth. Along the way, you will need to change a man and a bumper even less often. Thats it, it just doesn't get any easier.
TABLE OF CONTENTS
PART 1
WHAT TABLE SHOULD I BUY?
BUY A TORNADO COIN-OP – costs from $350-$1175
WHERE DO I BUY A USED TORNADO COIN-OP?
PART 2
TORNADO COIN-OP HISTORY AND USED TABLE PRICING
The Brown Marble to The Grey Marble
PART 3
TORNADO COIN-OP HISTORY AND USED TABLE PRICING
T2000 Metal Wrap to the 2009 T3000
PART 4
KEYS TO BUYING A USED COIN-OP
PART 5
AFTER THE PURCHASE - basic TABLE MAINTENANCE
PART 1 , WHAT TABLE SHOULD I BUY?
Bottom line answer is buy a Torando coin-op unless you have a specific background on a certain table. In the US, there are only 3 table manufactures that are part of a serious discussion.
First, a quick word on the other 2 manufactures.
Bonzini is a French made table with limited distribution in the US, some small charity tournament run in the southeast by Bonzini USA. This table is expensive, hard to find, has small distribution in the US, and plays VERY differently from the primary US table Tornado.
http://www.bonziniusa.com/
Warrior is a US owned company and they are partnered up with IFP (Independent Foosball Promotions). IFP uses Warrior exclusively and IFP runs the largest (money and number of events) foosball “tour” in the US and that doesn’t look to change any time soon.
Warrior is less than a year old (as of 6/29/09) and they started with only one table, a home model. This table plays well and has a good design for playability and they have what I believe to be the best foosball ever made. The two main reasons I can’t recommend them as a primary table purchase is because they don’t have a coin-op and their home model doesn’t hold up well enough.
Warrior is working on fixing the table first run short-comings and will be coming out with a coin-op version soon and when those things happen, I will re-evaluate.
BUY A TORNADO COIN-OP – range in price from $350-$1175
No sturdier or more reliable table ever made in the US. Tournament players may argue about what table, past or present, has the “best” playing style or which table is “most complete” but no one will argue that the Tornado coin-op (T2000 and T3000) has as good or better build quality/durability as any table EVER made.
If you are thinking, “I will buy a Tornado but don’t want to spend the money for an expensive coin-op”….plain and simple, it is a waste of money to buy a non-coin. Too long a discussion to go into here, you can look it up in previous postings.
WHERE DO I BUY A USED TORNADO COIN-OP?
CRAIG’S LIST: For the Brown Marble – the Metal wrapped T2000, Craig’s list is the best place to find a used coin-op bar none…make your search on Craig’s list as far away as you are willing to drive. You can sometimes find them on eBay but shipping adds $120-$175 to the sale price.
TORNADOFOOSBALL.COM: The simplest and most reliable thing you can do if you can spend $1200 for the state-of-the-art table is you can buy a “tournament used” table (which is like brand new) for $1150-$1175 from Charles MacIntosh at http://tornadofoosb.powweb.com/store/index.html
Or call him at 336-210-1194. Highly recommended if you can afford it, especially right now with the T3000 as it looks like this may be the best table Tornado has made.
PART 2 ,TORNADO COIN-OP HISTORY AND USED TABLE PRICING
PART 2
Brown Marble - all at least 12 years old - $350-$550
oldest versions have the large metal feet and are considered the most (some debate now with the newest complete change T3000) solid consistent of all the tables
Most common have the current smaller plastic foot - I am not aware of any other substantial difference between this and the large foot except the feet...this was my favorite table but the new T3000 is very close in playability but considering the age and time "in the field" the Brwn Mrbl is still the best table Tornado has made but if the T3000 stands the test of time, it will be a toss up on which is best and the decision will be which play style you prefer
so, if you are looking for an inexpensive used table, this is your best bet...wide swing in quality because of how long they have been out there so this requires patients and careful shopping
Blonde – 1995?-2000? - $400-$575
consistent all the same, plays much different than the Brown Marble...
Cherry - to end of 2002 - $450 - $650
Fastest of all the tables and because of this can be a challenge with ball control..
- I own this table, ball control is difficult but the speed is fun...play is improved with heat-treated rods but it doesn't really fix the control issues...however, if you can play on this table, you can play on any table...everything is easier after playing on this which in my mind makes it a good practice table
GREY MARBLES - $600-$800
Overall, even with the quirks, this all the confusing talk below about manufacturing changes, this is a really nice table.
30th Anniversary Grey Marble - 2003 release, only out during 2003
This table really starts a wild string of table changes which are hard to document and follow but let me take a stab at it.
The Merkel heat-treated rods were introduced at this time...in my opinion the best table change I have seen on any table at any time - only rival now is the Warrior ball...the rods were very smooth, were almost unbendable, and required far less lube to keep them at their best
Issue 1: First tables released did not all have Merkel rods, there was a mix...some tables had none, some had some, some had all...this run of tables was fairly short so I don't think there were enough made at the end to be sure when ALL Merkel rods were available
Playing surface was a little different and many liked this table because it created extra control due to the surface change...
Issue 2: Before this run was done, the man changes began and spilled over to the beginning of the Grey Marble runs...there was an attempt to make a more durable cheaper man using Nylon (Lets call this Nylon 1) (pretty darn ironic since the Tornado man was already super durable)...Nylon set up differently in the molds so it created seam issues on the side of the man which impacted tic tacking and some had dips in the front and/or back of the foot - This first Nylon man was had a dull finish and is easy to pick out on a table,
They didn't give up on Nylon right away and so began Nylon 2 where they tried a different chemistry mix...still very inconsistent mold issues...this man is easy to pick out because it is very shinny ...
Both Nylon men were short-lived but still on the 30th and early Grey Marble to follow, there ended up being tables with some or all of the original man, Nylon 1, and/or Nylon 2 men
Grey Marble - 2004 to end of 2006 beginning 2007
Different playing surface than the 30th
Earliest versions had mix of men but were consistent with Merkel rods but less than a year in they had gone back to the original man and all Merkel rods...this was the best of the Grey Marbles...good playing solid table
Handles – went from shape which was well known and long running to wood with deeper dip, then to plastic with less dip, which was soundly rejected and short-lived, back to the original wood less dip
Rod - Part way through the life of this version Tornado dropped Merkel because they thought the rod was too expensive and went with an imported heat-treated rod...still better than the original rod but nothing near as good as the Merkel rods (Merkel is the last name of the person making them...made here in the US just for this application...Warrior is considering this in coming competition models)
Merkel rod side thought: How good is this rod? Played on a Brown Marble bar table which saw much non-fooser abuse...every bar table with non-merkel rods is going to have a bent 2 rod, just a matter of time and eventually the 3 rod as well...the owner of this table, without knowing it, replaced the 2 rods with Merkel and we played on that table for OVER 2 YEARS without the 2 rods ever bending...need I say more?
PART 3, T2000 Metal Wrap - release 2007 to Worlds 2008 warped $750-$900
PART 3
T2000 Metal Wrap - release 2007 to Worlds 2008 warped $750-$900 - assuming surface is NOT nor has ever been
Okay, this was a good table outside of not having Merkel rods but instead the imported heat-treated rods...no surface, man, or handle changes during the run BUT
Toward the end of the run and around the same time two important negative things happened...one is that they made a change in the production of the playing surface and there are a bunch of these tables with warped surfaces...if you get one of these warped surface tables you will own the worst Tornado ever made…I have had the misfortune of having to play on one of these and it ranks with the worst foosball experiences I can remember...EVER! there is no excuse and no fixing it...
The warped playing surface tables showed up at Tornado tournaments to the dismay of many...there is a "fix" suggested out there were you put blocks under the top to push up the surface (available on other board)...I won't get into details but a warped playing surface on any table in foosball is unacceptable PERIOD...the playing surface needs to be replaced by the manufacture...this is bad enough it should have a recall. Note: Tornado agrees and will work with people but you have to replace the surface yourself and this is not easy for most people. Best not to get one to begin with.
The other tragedy is the change on the latest models, start of 2008 I believe, of the score markers to the new plastic CRAP CRAP CRAP...it may be hard to tell but I don't like these
Now, with that said, I have a friend (BigBrewGuy on this forum) who has a metal wrapped table with the original score markers and a solid flat playing surface and it is a very nice table and plays really well…he got lucky
It was during this time that Tornado started trying to make some positive changes...they say the warped top issue is fixed...it appears now as of this date, 6/29/09, that the issue is resolved on new table production and that all T3000 (true T3000's) have the issue fixed...any metal wrapped table before the release of the T3000 is at least suspect. Not all are bad, you just need to make sure yours is not if you buy the metal wrapped T2000.
Okay, this is tricky, because there have been a number of changes which took place toward the end of this run moving into the "full meal deal T3000" (I will explain what I mean by this shortly)
Without comment on the motivation or process (and there is a ton), the following are the changes that were decided on
• Bearings: Inside face of bearings made thinner…because the ball could pass behind a man even when the man was flush on the wall…most notable if you did a stick wall pass perfect, not only could you go through the defense even if the man was flat on the wall but it could also go behind your 3 bar when trying to catch it…this change has fixed that issue completely from all reports so far - good change so far
• Man: the foot of the man was changed, not enough in my opinion (more on this in a separate thread)…they were trying to address two things…ball control and hitting a consistent angle which would open the game up with banks and accurate angle shots like should be used on pushkick and pullkcick shots (not limited to this, just any time a consistent angle is needed) - two changes were done to try and make these things happen
Man change 1 - On the face of the "new" man the cross-hatch goes further up to about ¾ of the face of the man instead of stopping at about ½ way
Man change 2 - this plaid pattern did not go all the way to the edge of the man before the man change (like it does on the Warrior man), instead there was, and is, an “edge” something between 1/32 and 1/16 of an inch…very thin but impacting how the ball is struck for angles and control in a pin...this edge was not removed with the new man change but there was an edge change
Man Edge Change - There has been an edge change…in attempt to fix the angle striking issues, that edge has been slightly beveled…so instead of being a right angle with the side of the man, this same line/strip is now on an angle…say from 90 degrees to 45 degrees…I don’t actually think this is a full 45 egrees but rather something in between 90 and 45 degrees, Ed Geer could probably say what they settled on
although in my opinion, they did not make the best decision when changing the mold and should have gone cross-hatch all the way to the edge and taken the curve away and made the front edge a straight edge, the overall change is still positive
• Side-strips, Handles, and Balls - a decision to change these was made at this time too but the changes were not implemented until the T3000 "full meal deal".
T3000 2009 - current
What do I mean by “full meal deal T3000”? Well, there are some late model T2000 metal wrap tables (that have the new CRAPPY plastic score markers) and that seem to have been pawned off as T3000 tables. Some (but not all) of these tables have the Big Tornado and ITSF stickers…see video below on set up of the table Zeke won at Worlds which he calls a T3000
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtFqO5Ng-7s
My local bar was sold this same table (with small stickers) being told it was a T3000…this is the table with the warped surface…This new bar table and the Zeke’s table are NOT true T3000's … Tornado may indeed have tried to sell these tables as T3000's, name or not, they are NOT the “full meal deal” T3000 and really are late run T2000 tables
I think Zeke’s does not have a warped surface and BigBrewGuy has same table with little stickers sans CRAPPY plastic markers...no other difference...T3000? For sure they are NOT.
T3000 2009 - current - $1000-$1175“FULL MEAL DEAL T3000”
This table should have all the changes listed above, men, bearings, CRAPPY score-markers, Big Tornado/ITSF stickers.
In addition to these changes the real T3000 should have a unwarped surface and the following.
Handle Change: Now a softer “plastic” compound same shape as the wood handle above I refer to as “original” handle. It looks something like the plastic handle that Tornado tried during the Grey Marble era but they are a different material, slightly softer, slightly but noticeably smaller, and they do not have the hard edges of the original plastic handle. These factors make this a significant improvement.
Side-Strip: changed to clear strip, slightly wider, which is essentially flat…this is to keep the ball from jumping up after hitting the strip to help facilitate banks and cut ball off the table…trade off is that the ball gets stuck on the wall from time to time
Ball Change: as of 6/29/09 Tornado has settled on a ball and it is slightly darker red, harder, and keeps its scruffy surface longer...it is referred to has the "5 hour tumbled" ball because it has been tumbled for 5 hours to get the surface it has...pretty good ball but I think it is too hard...Tornado isn't showing any signs of changing this ball again any time soon.
1 man goalie table: NOT SHIPPING in US as of 06/29/09 but…???
1 man Goalie?: Announced as the official table to be used at ITSF International Multi-Table Championships in France…hold on to your hats, this one is going to be a wild ride while all the variables, motivations, and practical implementations of this take place. Question about weather the change was “legal” for this tournament, if it would be a conversion kit or permanent table surface change (like Warrior uses), if the change will be permanent, or if the change will be forced in the US this year and/or sometime in the future. For a complete run down of the current public discussion on this (as of 12/26/08) see link below. Read closely AmericanFoosball poster comments, long but very accurate and informed.
PART 4, KEYS TO BUYING A USED COIN-OP
KEYS TO BUYING A USED COIN-OP
When buying a used table, everyone asks what they should look for…
Take or get lots of close up good digital pictures and I or someone on this site can help you determine what you are looking at… If possible, best to visit table in person but either way, these are the things you are looking for.
1. TABLE SURFACE: First and most important is, is the table surface level...no warping...it would be very weird if a BrMrb had warping but don't assume it is okay because it could warp if it sat in a bar long enough and had enough beer spilled on it - this would be a total deal killer
Tornado has only had one manufacturing issue with warped surfaces and that was the Metal wrapped F5/T2000…not all, but many of these tables had warped surfaces…do not buy one of these…long story but bottom line is it is too much hassle to fix and you can easily find a different coin-op without a warped playing surface.
2. GOAL EDGES: Second and probably a deal breaker are the edges on the goals...if they have been hit enough times that they are starting to chip away, we call this a "blown out goal" then you probably want to pass on this one and wait for the next table (there will be more)...it can be fixed but it is very complicated and requires real skill
3. INSIDE PLAYFIELD WALLS: the inside walls (white surface) should be firmly attached, no lifting, pockets, chipping, holes, etc….this like the goal edges and play surface are very hard for an average person to fix and if they are really damaged, should be a deal killer
4. RODS: rods need to all be straight, no bends at all...the seller can tell if the rods are bent but if they aren’t sure, they can spin each and if it wobbles when it spins, its bent...bent rods are not a deal breaker because they aren't too hard to replace but they are $35 each plus shipping so you would want to figure that out into your offer
5. MEN: Cracked or broken men - same as the rods, not a deal breaker but a cost if some need to be replaced difference is cost is much lower impact at $5 each...you will want to get 2 or 3 of each color anyway unless the person has extra with the table
6. COIN MECHANISM: Make sure the coin mechanism is fully working even if you don’t need it for your use because if you ever want to re-sell it, you will want this working, it gives you a bigger audience of buyers. Replacing all the parts in this is well over $100. With that said, it will be very rare you find one that doesn’t work but you should know for sure before buying. If there are problems, figure them out and what it will cost to fix and negotiate selling price or walk away from deal.
7. FEET AND LEGS: Legs aren’t likely to be bad, haven’t seen that many times but the feet need to be in good shape and working (meaning they can thread up and down)...if not, they can be easily replaced, and they are inexpenisve…this should only impact your offer price
8. BALLS: Are there any with the table and what shape...this is the least of the things but good to know because balls are $3 each...just an aside, a ton of people don't like them but if the ball is a genuine Tornado ball but is well used from a bar, I love them because they get very sticky and are good for control especially for a new player...they bounce a little more too but that doesn't bother me...you will not find universal agreement on this point just my opinion for what its worth…most old Tornado balls can be washed and made near like new easily if you want that
PART 5, AFTER THE PURCHASE - basic TABLE MAINTENANCE
AFTER THE PURCHASE - basic TABLE MAINTENANCE
Equipment Needed for Basic Maintenance
• Roll pins 30 cents each: http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net...0-020.html
• Silicone 8 oz bottle $12: http://tornadofoosb.powweb.com/store/page6.html
• Pocket Size $2.50: http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net/fooslube.html
• Bearing Wrench $5.50: http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net...0-049.html
• Roll Pin Punch $5: http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net...0-021.html
If you need to replace any bearings, bumpers, or men, they can be found here
Tornado Parts: http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net/tornado.html
Spare Parts…what should you have on hand.
• 2 or 3 each color man, when you get down to 1, reorder
• 15-20 roll pins, when you get to 5, reorder
• 4 bumpers, when you get down to 1, reorder
• 1 split bearing halves – these don’t go bad almost ever, so one should take care of you for a long time…reorder when you use it
What to do…Clean the table top to bottom...most people use a 50/50 mix of water and 409 cleaner ... I personally was taught many many years ago never to use anything on the playing surface or on the men so I just use hot water and elbow grease...it is the safe way and guarantees you don't leave any foreign substance on the playing surfaces
on the exterior cabinet, legs, and feet the 50/50 works real well
Using a Bearing Wrench, take all your bearings apart and clean any built up gunk from the bearing half's...the first time you do this on a used table, I recommend taking them all off and doing them all at the same time. For ongoing maintenance, just pull take apart the split bearings once or twice a year or whenever you suspect build up…clean at that time one at a time with hot water or use the 50/50 mixture.
A Bearing Wrench usually comes with the table. You can do it without a bearing wrench but it is harder and this is a basic must have table tool.
Bearing Wrench $5.50: http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net...0-049.html
The non-split side of the bearings, the “nut” may be gunky too, they are part of the “bearings”
the ones on the non handle side are easy to remove but if want the bearing nut on this side, you will need to remove handle - make sure you have extra roll pins before beginning this phase of clean up
Roll Pins 30 cents each: http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net...0-020.html
Roll Pin Punch $5 or $9: Did you get a roll pin "punch" with the table? if not, again you NEED one of these...you can use other things like a counter sink to get by but this is made for this application and is worth the investment and is a standard table maintenance tool
here is the punch everyone uses standard with every table sold
Roll Pin Punch $5: http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net...0-021.html
however, recently foosball.com found a big boy version of this which I bought and it is much better, easier to use, I absolutely love it...to me, well worth the difference in price...you can't tell by the pictures but trust me when I say the standard is like a 6 year old and the big one is like a professional NFL linebacker...okay, that may be overstated a little but you get the idea...foosdirect is the only place I have ever seen it
Big Boy "Super Pin Driver" $8.95: http://foosdirectstore.stores.yahoo.net/...river.html
Cleaning the Bearings: Simplest approach is to take them all off (bearing halves and the bearing nut), and soak them in very hot water and a liberal amount of dish soap…let these soak while you scrub the table surface and rods…then go back to the bearings when you are done and wash each one until they are totally clean of build up, rinse with hot of water (as hot as you can stand)…lay them out on a dry cloth to drain/dry
Make sure they are air or hand dried completely before putting them back on the table
After you have all your bearings cleaned and before you replace them, clean the rods really well to remove anything left on them like silicone, beer, Jack Daniels, or other "special" fluids people creatively use to "lube" the rods
Silicone: Hopefully you were given some Silicone but if not you NEED it...I recommend buying a large supply bottle and the small applicator Pocket Size version. The Pocket Size version it is by far the best way to apply silicone and you can use the big bottle to refill the travel size. Silicone should go on rods only, don’t get it on anything else, it is very slick. Apply thin line on each rod from the bumper to the edge of the inside bearing – do this on the near side and far side of the rod.
Turn the rod in circles and pull the rods back and forth gently and slowly at first to evenly distribute the lube on all sides and to not splatter any on the table surface.
8 oz bottle $12 http: //tornadofoosb.powweb.com/store/page6.html
Pocket Size $2.50 http: //foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net/fooslube.html
Ball Care: If you have gotten Tornado balls with your used table or end up with older used Tornado balls, you can bring them back to near new by simply putting them is a sock and throwing them in your washer and wash with soap and hot water. When they are done, throw them in the drier (still in the sock) and dry on hot fully. There are many other methods but this is simple and works surprisingly well.
NOTE ABOUT ON-GOING MATINENANCE
once you have done the complete cleaning, you won't need to put more than an hour a two a year into maintenance to keep your table like new...if you play everyday, wipe the surface once a month or so, clean bearings one hear one there as needed, and lube the rods as needed. Very simple and easy. Every couple years you can do the deep cleaning with all bearings and so forth. Along the way, you will need to change a man and a bumper even less often. Thats it, it just doesn't get any easier.
"Man's way to God is with beer in hand." - some Belgium monk