18-Nov-2008, 02:40 PM
Thought I would add this aswell. Some players struggling with their passing might like this, aswell as some new players trying to develop a passing series. This was posted by Dave Gummeson (Top Pro-Master for many years)
Gumby Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:13 pm
Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 4
Foos Rank : Pro-Master
Here are a couple of tips on 5 man passing. These are some things to think about that may help you develop a better passing series. These are in no particular order but, just some things you may want to consider.
1. Do you have a plan each match depending on who your playing. Is it someone you have played a lot in the past that knows your game well? Do they know what you favor and what your strengths and weaknesses are? If it's someone you've only played once or twice do you remember what you had success or didn't have success with last time? You can bet that they'll be trying to do the same thing. Especially if it was recent.
If you've never played them before your going to want to kind of feel the situation out by starting with your strengths and making adjustments from there.
2. Pay attention to how they react to certain movements/fakes, etc throughout the match. You might find something that they really fall for and will want to maybe save that for a big point or points when you really need it. You may also chose to just beat them over the head with it until they figure it out. Sometimes they never do which leads me to my next point.
3. Don't make adjustments just for the sake of making adjustments. Make them adjust to you. Todd Loffredo said once. " You know what the best adjustment is sometimes?" "No adjustment!"
You would be surprised at the number of players killing someone with a certain shot or pass or Defense and then all of a sudden they are doing something else. You ask them about it and they say something like "I didn't want to get too predictable" or "I was worried they were going to start block that pass or shot". I can't stress enough not to adjust unless the situation dictates it. Duh! Right!
4. Have options to your passing series that blend well with each other and look the same but, have different results. It could be as simple as varying the speed of the toss on a brush pass or the spot you brush it at. Make sure you can set them up the same and have the same comfort level with all of them. If you can't perform it at a high consistency level it's a worthless pass. Also, don't use the pass unless the situation dictates it. It's important to understand why your doing a certain pass. When is this option effective and when is it not? If your just randomly throwing in options to mix things up then thats all your results will be. Random.
5. Most important of all on the five row is ball control. Whether you move the ball around a lot, fast or slow you need to have superior ball control. It dictates your ability to get the ball where you want it the first time and not have to struggle to find the "sweet spot". It also helps your confidence level. This is especially important on big points where you need to be able to do everything as if it were second nature. If you have to think about execution your going to have problems under pressure.
There is a lot more to five row passing but, this is a start and hopefully this will help some people out. The 5 row is the single most important rod on the table in my opinion so, I recommend doubling or even tripling your practice on this rod compared to any other.
Happy foosing
Dave Gummeson
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Diggy Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:40 pm
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 19
Foos Rank : Amateur
Location: Minnesota
Thanks for the advice Dave
A couple of quick questions for you.
#1 You say to have a plan when passing. Can You please expand on this? How much detail do I need. For example I'm going to pass 3 ups then go down or something as simple as I'm playing slow and reading. What do you mean by a plan?
#2 Do you think it's better to " beat them over the head" or keep that ace of the sleave till you need it. I personally look for a pass or shot that is open right off the bat, then use it at 3-2 or 2-3 or 4-4. In your opinion whats the best?
#3 It's really easy to second guess your pass. Do you have any advice on how to stop yourself from making adjustment? For example at worlds 2005 I played a guy that gave me the down the first 3 passes, then i went up and was blocked. The rest of the match the down was open, but something in my head kept telling me to go up. I kept thinging he has to adjust, but he didn't.
"The 5 row is the single most important rod on the table". Is this just in double or in your opinion is it the same in single? I've heard a lot of people say singles as won by the 2 bar. Do you feel this way, because you have 1 of the best 3 row in the world?
Thanks for you time
Cory
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Mury Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:46 am
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 261
Foos Rank : Semi-Pro
Location: Minnesota
Diggy wrote:
Thanks for the advice Dave
A couple of quick questions for you.
#1 You say to have a plan when passing. Can You please expand on this? How much detail do I need. For example I'm going to pass 3 ups then go down or something as simple as I'm playing slow and reading. What do you mean by a plan?
I'm curious about this too. What I've always wondered which nobody ever seems willing to share is what are effective patterns. What type of things catch a defender off guard? For example, a brush passer may find that following up a bunch of brush downs with a high lane stick may catch a defender off guard. What other setups have that element of surprise?
What patterns seem to work? Obviously what they are giving you is the most important factor, but what are the best times to really go after a different hole to keep your favorite hole open?
Quote:
#2 Do you think it's better to " beat them over the head" or keep that ace of the sleave till you need it. I personally look for a pass or shot that is open right off the bat, then use it at 3-2 or 2-3 or 4-4. In your opinion whats the best?
Further... what is that ace? Is it a variation of what you've already been working, or is it something completely different? Is the element of surprise with something different the best, or is it a wrinkle in something that you've been conditioning them for the best?
Thanks.
Mury
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Gumby Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:09 pm
Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 4
Foos Rank : Pro-Master
Cory,
What I'm talking about is exactly what I wrote in my last post but, I'll try and explain better. The plan would be based on the individual partially if you've had experience playing them. Let me give you an example. I'm about to play player X who I've played a few times before but, not a lot. I remember that he didn't adjust well to a regular drag lane pass. He would chase to the wall any time I did that pass leaving that particular lane pass wide open. He was quick at getting to the wall and was able to react well to a regular wall pass. I remember trying hesitation walls on him early in the match and they were not working because any motion to the wall would cause him to collapse on the wall. I also noticed that if I tossed it over slowly to do a brush pass he would hang out in the grey area until he thought I was going to pass and then committ to one. Usually going for the lane. I remember doing a few of those fake brushes where I kick it out to the second man and go right back to the wall all in one motion. When I did that pass he bit on it hard and chased as if I was going brush up.
So my plan is basically I'm going to start out and establish the drag lane pass. If he didn't learn anything last time I should be able to get away with several of those in a row. After a while(I can usually tell the right time) I would start trying a few hesitation walls and mix in brush passes as well. I want to establish the brush pass as well to see if he still has a tendancy to cover the up more then the down when I hover and go into the motion of a brush. I also check to see if when I kick it back out from my first guy does he chase out and away from the wall leaving the quick reverse wall. If so that would be my ace for when I really need a pass. So in summary, I beat him over the head with the drag lane early in the match. Mix in some brush passes to keep him off balance and establish that pass and see if he still favors blocking the up and also to set him up for the Ace when I need it.
Of course all the time paying attention to what is going on and adjusting my thinking where needed.
I could go through this whole scenario with each player I face. If I've never played them or scouted them then you learn on the fly which is why PM's really prefer 3 out of 5 matches.
Mury,
To try and answer your question about patterns. It's really not so much about patterns as it is picking up on subtle little things your opponent does or doesn't do. If your too much into patterns then it's all too random. It's hard to totally explain but, you definately don't want the mind set that I'm going to do 3 ups then 1 down and back to the up and so fourth because you really are just making random decisions then. Does that make sense?
As far as things that catch a defender off gaurd. I could go on for quite some time but, lets just say it's about changing the variables. A lot of players are way too predictable in that they toss the ball over at the same speed all the time or pass in the same spot(Do their up from the same spot). By using the same speed toss several times in a row and then suddenly tossing it over much faster or slower can really mess people up. They may be trying to show you a certain hole and then they are going to take it away right before you pass. By changing up your toss speed you can catch them off gaurd and hit the hole they are showing you before they are ready to cover it up. You can also cause them to sort of tip their hand if you slow the toss down. They will move into the hole they were baiting you for too quickly and expose their intentions leaving the other option wide open. It's all very subtle and takes a lot of practice but, hopefully you get the idea.
Mury,
As far as the ace see my above scenario. There really isn't one good answer to what the ace would be but, for me it's usually an option off one of my basic passes that I find they have a tendancy to "fall for" fairly consistently when I try it. I can give you some other examples next time I see you.
Hope this helped
Dave Gummeson
Gumby Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:13 pm
Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 4
Foos Rank : Pro-Master
Here are a couple of tips on 5 man passing. These are some things to think about that may help you develop a better passing series. These are in no particular order but, just some things you may want to consider.
1. Do you have a plan each match depending on who your playing. Is it someone you have played a lot in the past that knows your game well? Do they know what you favor and what your strengths and weaknesses are? If it's someone you've only played once or twice do you remember what you had success or didn't have success with last time? You can bet that they'll be trying to do the same thing. Especially if it was recent.
If you've never played them before your going to want to kind of feel the situation out by starting with your strengths and making adjustments from there.
2. Pay attention to how they react to certain movements/fakes, etc throughout the match. You might find something that they really fall for and will want to maybe save that for a big point or points when you really need it. You may also chose to just beat them over the head with it until they figure it out. Sometimes they never do which leads me to my next point.
3. Don't make adjustments just for the sake of making adjustments. Make them adjust to you. Todd Loffredo said once. " You know what the best adjustment is sometimes?" "No adjustment!"
You would be surprised at the number of players killing someone with a certain shot or pass or Defense and then all of a sudden they are doing something else. You ask them about it and they say something like "I didn't want to get too predictable" or "I was worried they were going to start block that pass or shot". I can't stress enough not to adjust unless the situation dictates it. Duh! Right!
4. Have options to your passing series that blend well with each other and look the same but, have different results. It could be as simple as varying the speed of the toss on a brush pass or the spot you brush it at. Make sure you can set them up the same and have the same comfort level with all of them. If you can't perform it at a high consistency level it's a worthless pass. Also, don't use the pass unless the situation dictates it. It's important to understand why your doing a certain pass. When is this option effective and when is it not? If your just randomly throwing in options to mix things up then thats all your results will be. Random.
5. Most important of all on the five row is ball control. Whether you move the ball around a lot, fast or slow you need to have superior ball control. It dictates your ability to get the ball where you want it the first time and not have to struggle to find the "sweet spot". It also helps your confidence level. This is especially important on big points where you need to be able to do everything as if it were second nature. If you have to think about execution your going to have problems under pressure.
There is a lot more to five row passing but, this is a start and hopefully this will help some people out. The 5 row is the single most important rod on the table in my opinion so, I recommend doubling or even tripling your practice on this rod compared to any other.
Happy foosing
Dave Gummeson
Back to top
Diggy Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:40 pm
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 19
Foos Rank : Amateur
Location: Minnesota
Thanks for the advice Dave
A couple of quick questions for you.
#1 You say to have a plan when passing. Can You please expand on this? How much detail do I need. For example I'm going to pass 3 ups then go down or something as simple as I'm playing slow and reading. What do you mean by a plan?
#2 Do you think it's better to " beat them over the head" or keep that ace of the sleave till you need it. I personally look for a pass or shot that is open right off the bat, then use it at 3-2 or 2-3 or 4-4. In your opinion whats the best?
#3 It's really easy to second guess your pass. Do you have any advice on how to stop yourself from making adjustment? For example at worlds 2005 I played a guy that gave me the down the first 3 passes, then i went up and was blocked. The rest of the match the down was open, but something in my head kept telling me to go up. I kept thinging he has to adjust, but he didn't.
"The 5 row is the single most important rod on the table". Is this just in double or in your opinion is it the same in single? I've heard a lot of people say singles as won by the 2 bar. Do you feel this way, because you have 1 of the best 3 row in the world?
Thanks for you time
Cory
Back to top
Mury Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:46 am
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 261
Foos Rank : Semi-Pro
Location: Minnesota
Diggy wrote:
Thanks for the advice Dave
A couple of quick questions for you.
#1 You say to have a plan when passing. Can You please expand on this? How much detail do I need. For example I'm going to pass 3 ups then go down or something as simple as I'm playing slow and reading. What do you mean by a plan?
I'm curious about this too. What I've always wondered which nobody ever seems willing to share is what are effective patterns. What type of things catch a defender off guard? For example, a brush passer may find that following up a bunch of brush downs with a high lane stick may catch a defender off guard. What other setups have that element of surprise?
What patterns seem to work? Obviously what they are giving you is the most important factor, but what are the best times to really go after a different hole to keep your favorite hole open?
Quote:
#2 Do you think it's better to " beat them over the head" or keep that ace of the sleave till you need it. I personally look for a pass or shot that is open right off the bat, then use it at 3-2 or 2-3 or 4-4. In your opinion whats the best?
Further... what is that ace? Is it a variation of what you've already been working, or is it something completely different? Is the element of surprise with something different the best, or is it a wrinkle in something that you've been conditioning them for the best?
Thanks.
Mury
Back to top
Gumby Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:09 pm
Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 4
Foos Rank : Pro-Master
Cory,
What I'm talking about is exactly what I wrote in my last post but, I'll try and explain better. The plan would be based on the individual partially if you've had experience playing them. Let me give you an example. I'm about to play player X who I've played a few times before but, not a lot. I remember that he didn't adjust well to a regular drag lane pass. He would chase to the wall any time I did that pass leaving that particular lane pass wide open. He was quick at getting to the wall and was able to react well to a regular wall pass. I remember trying hesitation walls on him early in the match and they were not working because any motion to the wall would cause him to collapse on the wall. I also noticed that if I tossed it over slowly to do a brush pass he would hang out in the grey area until he thought I was going to pass and then committ to one. Usually going for the lane. I remember doing a few of those fake brushes where I kick it out to the second man and go right back to the wall all in one motion. When I did that pass he bit on it hard and chased as if I was going brush up.
So my plan is basically I'm going to start out and establish the drag lane pass. If he didn't learn anything last time I should be able to get away with several of those in a row. After a while(I can usually tell the right time) I would start trying a few hesitation walls and mix in brush passes as well. I want to establish the brush pass as well to see if he still has a tendancy to cover the up more then the down when I hover and go into the motion of a brush. I also check to see if when I kick it back out from my first guy does he chase out and away from the wall leaving the quick reverse wall. If so that would be my ace for when I really need a pass. So in summary, I beat him over the head with the drag lane early in the match. Mix in some brush passes to keep him off balance and establish that pass and see if he still favors blocking the up and also to set him up for the Ace when I need it.
Of course all the time paying attention to what is going on and adjusting my thinking where needed.
I could go through this whole scenario with each player I face. If I've never played them or scouted them then you learn on the fly which is why PM's really prefer 3 out of 5 matches.
Mury,
To try and answer your question about patterns. It's really not so much about patterns as it is picking up on subtle little things your opponent does or doesn't do. If your too much into patterns then it's all too random. It's hard to totally explain but, you definately don't want the mind set that I'm going to do 3 ups then 1 down and back to the up and so fourth because you really are just making random decisions then. Does that make sense?
As far as things that catch a defender off gaurd. I could go on for quite some time but, lets just say it's about changing the variables. A lot of players are way too predictable in that they toss the ball over at the same speed all the time or pass in the same spot(Do their up from the same spot). By using the same speed toss several times in a row and then suddenly tossing it over much faster or slower can really mess people up. They may be trying to show you a certain hole and then they are going to take it away right before you pass. By changing up your toss speed you can catch them off gaurd and hit the hole they are showing you before they are ready to cover it up. You can also cause them to sort of tip their hand if you slow the toss down. They will move into the hole they were baiting you for too quickly and expose their intentions leaving the other option wide open. It's all very subtle and takes a lot of practice but, hopefully you get the idea.
Mury,
As far as the ace see my above scenario. There really isn't one good answer to what the ace would be but, for me it's usually an option off one of my basic passes that I find they have a tendancy to "fall for" fairly consistently when I try it. I can give you some other examples next time I see you.
Hope this helped
Dave Gummeson
"Man's way to God is with beer in hand." - some Belgium monk