League Format - how to organize 14 teams within 3 tiers

[jpguywatchout]

Hello foosers,

So right now in league there are only two tiers.... 7 teams each. I was speaking with a few leaguers about that format, and it was pretty unanimous that there should be a 3rd tier... i.e. a middle tier.

Spoke with Chris Thomas, and he said, "Sure JP, just figure out how to organize it. Organizing 14 teams isn't easy."

So now we just have to figure it out. After speaking with Manny and with James and his team, I think 3-tiered play would go something like this:

Tier one - 4 teams (i.e. 2-team league sheet)
Tier two - 6 teams (i.e. 3-team league sheet)
Tier three - 4 teams (i.e. 2-team league sheet)

For a total of 14 teams...

Every 3 weeks, the top 2 and bottom 2 teams of each tier move up & move down.

I spoke to Chris about this, and he liked the premise but added 2 hurdles i haven't overcome yet:

1) According to the above breakdown, do we have enough tables to play on at Tailgators?
2) "If you play 3 weeks before teams move up & down, how do you determine who plays who in Tier #2 if there are six teams there?"

I put the problem to James and his team, who suggested to do a random draw... a "Draw Your Opponent" (DYO) as it were every wednesday for members of the middle tier.

Any other ideas on how to make a theoretical Tier Two work within a 3-week rotation schedule, given that you wouldn't be able to face each of the 5 teams in that tier?

jp

[5000 Years Old Man]

Hello foosers,

So right now in league there are only two tiers.... 7 teams each. I was speaking with a few leaguers about that format, and it was pretty unanimous that there should be a 3rd tier... i.e. a middle tier.

Spoke with Chris Thomas, and he said, "Sure JP, just figure out how to organize it. Organizing 14 teams isn't easy."

So now we just have to figure it out. After speaking with Manny and with James and his team, I think 3-tiered play would go something like this:

Tier one - 4 teams (i.e. 2-team league sheet)
Tier two - 6 teams (i.e. 3-team league sheet)
Tier three - 4 teams (i.e. 2-team league sheet)

For a total of 14 teams...

Every 3 weeks, the top 2 and bottom 2 teams of each tier move up & move down.

I spoke to Chris about this, and he liked the premise but added 2 hurdles i haven't overcome yet:

1) According to the above breakdown, do we have enough tables to play on at Tailgators?
2) "If you play 3 weeks before teams move up & down, how do you determine who plays who in Tier #2 if there are six teams there?"

I put the problem to James and his team, who suggested to do a random draw... a "Draw Your Opponent" (DYO) as it were every wednesday for members of the middle tier.

Any other ideas on how to make a theoretical Tier Two work within a 3-week rotation schedule, given that you wouldn't be able to face each of the 5 teams in that tier?

jp

The simple responses to this are:

1) We have 6 tables and three tiers as shown needs 7 tables for smooth sailings - thus either 7 tables or there will be three-ways in tier 2 each week

2) Never mind the "Draw Your Opponent" (DYO) unnecessary way out. Here:
- At the time of the switch (N-Night) those ranked 1-4 are in tier 1, those ranked 5-10 are in tier 2, those ranked 11-14 are in tier 3.
- After N-Night and each night after just promote the top team and demote the bottom team from tier 2; that again would correspond to a virtual 5th and 10th teams in a field of 14 teams.
- After N-Night demote the 4th from tier 1 and promote the 1st from tier 3

Don’t be ensnared from a theoretical definition of who fits in which tier – “on-paper” rankings are good to get started, but actual performance will move teams around to where they really belong : if they lose ranking they go down, if they gain ranking they go up

---

damn medications! each time I look at this above I spot typos and misplaced words

[5barwarrior]

The main points are these.
1) What would be the rotation for a 6 team tier?. For the four team tiers it is a simple round robin. Takes three weeks to rotate. With the 6 team tier it is not so easy. You would be playing the same team multiple times an playing a three tier sheet for three weeks. The other problem is that you would have 2-4 teams that would be stuck in that tier for two or more rotations. That means for 6 or more weeks you will be playing a three man sheet, which is a long night.

2) tables is a bit of an issue but with the number of teams we have there has to be 2 three team sheets and 4 two team sheets. Adding more tables is not really an issue (I floated this past the owner last night and he wasn't really open to it. I am sure if I pushed we could but...) The real solution would be to add a second night for a different tier.

DYO is interesting. I'll have to think about it.

I think the league needs to be fair for everyone, that means it should be balanced who plays three team sheets.

[5000 Years Old Man]

"all is for the best in this best of all possible worlds", but "we must cultivate our garden"

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expanding on that above, some lazy but hearthfelt observations:

rotation vs. blind step up and downs: who has to make it work is the decider, and should be

6 or 7 tables: well, adjusting the number of tables to fit the number of teams, at each league? and possibly during a league if teams die and/or are added? Too much (as always just my opinion)

Balancing the 3-ways in uncertain, changing situations: will produce fluid changing solutions, but it is the thought and effort that count

adding a second night for a different tier and Draw Your Opponent" (DYO): the more it gets complicated the more it will take to manage

[jpguywatchout]

hmmm.... well is there anyway to make a 3-team sheet just a little itty-bitty smaller?

1) Can we lose a game on that sheet? Just one game? Maybe get rid of the rollerball series or the 3-man? (whichever is least popular)

2) Can we make 3-team sheet games only to 5 goals instead of race-to-7 on a trial basis? Is that fair, or is it unwise?

3) I think perhaps we should poll the leaguers and ask them who thinks a 3-team sheet is too long. I don't have a problem with it. In fact, i prefer playing more than one team in a given night. If no one thinks it is too long, maybe we don't have to change anything. (right now, i suspect only tier one folks think the 3-team sheet is too long -- and if we have 3 tiers, then tier 1 players will no longer have to worry about a 3-man sheet anyway!)

jp

[5000 Years Old Man]

3-man roto has already been removed from the 3-way matches

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also, IF matches start on time and IF there are no interruptions the 3-way does not take that long (so that you don't poll me, can be painful)

[SilentSam]

I have a question: What benefit is there for producing a third tier? As it stands now, if you are sitting on the cusp of ther tier 1/tier 2 boundary, then you'd probably be there if there was a third tier anyways. All the third tier seems to do is cause the same teams to play each other over and over again. Sure, sometimes there are blowouts, but producing a third tier might means 3 weeks straight of blowouts anyways...

[5barwarrior]

Currently there are 7 teams in a tier and the plan is to have the top two move up and the bottom two move down.
In the current scenario (and this is my best guess without updating or even looking at the stats) that JP and Cayman teams will be moving up while Manny and Carm will be moving down.

It is quite possible that these four teams don't face each other because they will constantly be yo-yo-ing between tiers.

Ideally they should be facing each other.

[5barwarrior]

Another solution, which I have implemented before when we had 10 teams, was not to have any tiers at all. Everyone still thought there was tiers but there wasn't, not formally anyway. What happened was that the bottom of top tier merged with the top of the bottom tier. The weekly match ups were determined more on each teams skill levels rather than tiers.


Now... we can do something more like a ladder. Need to think about that one...

[5000 Years Old Man]

ladder... you climb a step if you win, you go down a step if you lose?

each week or 2-3 weeks based on points?

[jpguywatchout]

yes that's exactly it Chris, the reason for a 3rd tier is so medium teams can face other medium teams rather than swtiching places with them.

As it stands, i don't get to play ALL the teams at my own team's comparable skill level (there are some in tier two, but not all). I'd love to play Manny and Carm i.e. the lower-level tier one teams, as my opponents slowly graduate at their skill levels. You can't take my partners, Eric & Erin, who have been playing some really, really weak teams and then thrust them up in tier one, where we could conceivably play Merv and Jon the very next week after playing an all-girl team the week before.

There is a skill-level disconnect, and when we recruit new players/teams the first thing we tell them is that playing in league is all about playing those who are similar in skill level, because the league format evens things out.

I do not believe that is currently the case.

I'm okay with ladder format, as long as there are still 3-team sheets in the middle, since we only have so many tables to play on. The only thing about ladder is the bottom teams tend to stay on the bottom and keep playing each other and keep losing to the same people - but that's just a minor irritant i've heard, and my response is always that it should encourage the crappy teams to get better to get the hell out of there.

[SilentSam]

The only thing about ladder is the bottom teams tend to stay on the bottom and keep playing each other and keep losing to the same people

This.

The reverse is also true, that the top teams will keep playing the same teams over and over again. I guess a third tier also allows the possibility of a tier 3 team winning league overall, regardless of how unlikely that is to happen again.

Then again, I'm actually OK with any amount of tiers...

[Paul]

Currently there are 7 teams in a tier and the plan is to have the top two move up and the bottom two move down.
In the current scenario (and this is my best guess without updating or even looking at the stats) that JP and Cayman teams will be moving up while Manny and Carm will be moving down.

It is quite possible that these four teams don't face each other because they will constantly be yo-yo-ing between tiers.

Ideally they should be facing each other.

then make them face eachother.

if you dont want to pay a mortgage for your whole life, then don't.

[5barwarrior]

Easy to say there Mr. ING comercial (if you don't want to pay checking fees, then don't pay checking fees).

I'll have something figured out for this week.

[5barwarrior]

Okay... I think that I have come up with a solution to the problem.

We'll be adopting a three tier structure of two tiers with 5 teams and one with 4. Which tier which will only 4 teams change so that each different level will experience a nice rotation.

So with twelve weeks left in the league it will look as follows. Tiers will rotate every 3 weeks.

Tier 1: 5,5,4,5
Tier 2: 4,5,5,4
Tier 3: 5,4,5,5

The tiers with 5 teams will play with the three man sheets and would have to play one of the other teams twice within the rotation, but c'est la vie.

The number of teams moving from tier to tier will either be 1 or 2 depending on the number of teams in the original and destination tiers and their starting and ending number of teams. (There is a formula).

I think this makes more sense than the 2 tiers of seven.

Let me know if you have question of comments.

Chris