New York State Championship Nov 2nd-4th $12,000

[deliverance]

So speaking with Kevin the points bumped me up to 900/900 from Michigan, so I can't do beginner events in NY anyway. So Jason still needs a partner for one doubles event if he plays in that.

[Jester]

How the fuck are you at 900/900? Im not even at that. The clarity of the points system is the equivalent of a glass of shit.

[Pixel]

How the fuck are you at 900/900? Im not even at that. The clarity of the points system is the equivalent of a glass of shit.

It's actually pretty clear if you read all of Ahmad's threads about it on the foosboard.

[Jester]

Casti's points on Ahmad's spreadsheet after Michigan were between 500-600, if he auto gets bumped to amateur he should be 700/700, the 900/900 is coming out of thin air because Dan and I did the same thing this year and were at 700/700 at the star of St. Louis like Casti should be for the start of New York

"Ahmad_MD

Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 578
Location: Rockville, MD

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:55 am Post subject: 2012 World's Point Update Reply with quote
All right, here we go. I suppose the committee’s silence can be taken as tacit approval.

I’ve made some minor changes to the formula which is applied starting with 2012 this update.

The reason for these changes is to:

1) Lower the bonus points given to those who finish in the money but do not win the event. I’ve reduced the bonus targets for all events by a half and changed the distribution of how the bonus points get distributed so the first place winners continue to get as many points as before but others get fewer points.

2) Doubled the number of points gained or lost for each round the players exits earlier or later than expected. This will result in players losing more points for doing worse than expected and enables the possibility of a player going down in rank over time.

This formula is now much closer to what I had originally envisioned but could not implement because of the 2011 reset. We now have a pretty good distribution in that better players have established enough distance from others within each rank that the need for bonus points is reduced.

I know you guys hate this but this is actually the best feature of this system in that it can be tweaked to perform better as we go on. And I think Worlds serves as the perfect time to take a look and see if we need further tweaking.

Anyway here is the update link followed by a description of the system.



http://www.shaheensc.com/foos/2012WorldsPointUpdate.pdf


Effective with the 2012 Worlds

The Point System - The point system will be applied to seeded singles and doubles events. The idea is simple. Players finishing below their seeding will lose points. Players finishing above their seeding will gain points. Additionally, players finishing in the money will earn bonus points.

How does it work? Every player registered for an event contributes 2% of their points into a pool for that event (1% for mixed events). The total becomes the Total Contributed Points (TCP). The TCP will measure the size and the strength of an event. For example, the 2012 Worlds Amateur Singles event had a TCP of 1,444 points (combined sum of the 2% contributions of the 81 players in the event). The 2012 Worlds Open Singles event with 167 players had a TCP of 7,320 making a natural distinction between the two events.

So how does a player gain or lose points? Ahmad with 1,628 singles points entered Open Singles and is seeded #78. He contributes 33 points (2% of his points) to the TCP and is expected to finish 65th to 96th. If he finishes where he is supposed to, he gets no point adjustment. For every round he exits before his expected exit round, he loses points according to the following table, up to a maximum of the his contributed towards the event. For every round he lasts beyond his expected exit round, he gains points according to the following table (no maximum). So, if he finishes 97th to 128th he loses 16 points and if finishes 49th to 64th he gains 16 points and if he finishes 33rd to 48th he gains 32 points, and so on. Ahmad gained 16 points.

This year, Tony Spredeman was the number 1 seed at the Worlds Open Singles, and finished 5th/6th so exited 4 rounds earlier than he should have and lost 64 points. Frederic Collignon was seeded 9Th and finished 1st lasting 6 extra rounds and gained 96 points.

Type of Event Points gained or lost per round per player
Beginner 2 Point
Amateur 4 Points
Expert 8 Points
Pro 12 Points
Open 16 Points
Women Expert 12 Points
Women Open 16 Points
Expert Mixed 4 Points
Open Mixed 8 Points

And what about rewarding the winners? Bonus points will be awarded to those finishing in the money in order to keep the top players in each rank on a steady march towards the next higher rank. The bonus points will be assigned based on the following table, as a percentage of the TCP for the event. For example, at the 2012 Worlds Open Singles event with a TCP of 7,320 points, resulted in 549 bonus points (7.5% of the TCP) was distributed among the top 12 places (121 point to 1st, 90 points to 2nd , 68 points to 3rd, 51 point to 4th, and 38 points to 5th and 6th place finishers and so on).


Type of Event Bonus Points Awarded as a percentage of the TCP

Distributed among the Top
Beginner Singles 75% 6
Beginner Doubles 100% 6
Amateur Singles 37.5% 12
Amateur Doubles 50% 12
Expert Singles 22.5% 12
Expert Doubles 30% 12
Pro Singles 15% 12
Pro Doubles 20% 12
Open Singles 7.5% 12
Open Doubles 10% 12
Women Expert Singles 75% 6
Women Expert Doubles 100% 6
Women Open Singles 22.5% 12
Women Open Doubles 30% 12
Expert Mixed Doubles 30% 6
Open Mixed Doubles 10% 12

So Tony Spredeman lost 64 points for doing worse than expected but gained 38 points for finishing 5th/6th for a net total loss of 26 points. Frederic Collignon gained 96 points for doing better than expected and another 121 points for finishing 1st for a total gain of 217 points.
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jellojock



Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 191
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:40 am Post subject: Reply with quote
My Head hurts......



But if it works...Great
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no2bar



Joined: 19 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:45 am Post subject: Reply with quote
MORE CHANGES surprising no one. Well executed this time! Changes moving forward and not retro back 11 months. Do you and your confidants have the integrity to admit you were wrong and apologize? Doubt it


Warren
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wyn



Joined: 19 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:21 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Hmm. The guy who beat me in AS appears to be an expert in Singles already but was allowed to play as a 900 pt amateur?

I love oversights like that.

--Matt
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Sluggo



Joined: 18 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:55 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Curious now:

Originally when this new system came up you mentioned that events were in Factors based on the size of the event (Local DYP's/BYP's, City Tourney's, Regional, etc...) based on the size.... Does that ring a bell?

If so, was the "Factor" used in this years Worlds reduced any due to the reduction of attendance: If not, what will attendance have to go down to (to effect the factor)?
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Matt



Joined: 18 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:09 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
So if we're no longer 200pts above our rank after Worlds, are we able to play the lower rank?
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no2bar



Joined: 19 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:41 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Yea Matt what a circus..

Singles points
135 JOHNNY HORTON MN 5,109 5,029 (2 time open singles world champ INSERT song lyrics here)

200 NATHAN WINTER MN 4,290 4,294 (former top 10 in the World)
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Ahmad_MD



Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 578
Location: Rockville, MD

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:38 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
All right, let us go down the list
Warren,

1) my only confidant is Kitty and she is not involved in this other than she reads the posts on the board

2) to me my opinion on my integrity matters a hell of lot more than yours

3) people pay me a lot of money to come up with numbers they need to put on their financial statements. Then the funny thing is 6 months later they pay me just as much to redo the numbers and tell them the old ones were wrong and the new ones are better for now.

4) I think you meant to say that I’ve done you wrong. I suppose, the decision to redo all of the 2011 numbers for the purpose of coming up with singles and doubles points did deny you the opportunity to stay pro in doubles. You may have decided to skip a couple of events if you knew what was going to happen. All I can tell you is that I voted against separate singles and doubles points but once the decision was made, I determined that the best way to do it was to redo the points for the full year. We needed to get to where we are now as soon as we could and I stand by that decision. I am sorry if that has cost you or a couple of other players the opportunity to play in more events this year.

Wyn, if there is a problem you have spotted on the worksheets, please let me know. The numbers have not been submitted for update yet and I can fix it.

Sluggo, I think you are referring to the original idea of increasing or lowering the TCP charge. For local events I think this system works fine minus the bonus points. Clearly, we do not want to keep giving bonus points to the same couple of players who tend to dominate any local scene.

Matt, as I understand it the 200 point issue is no longer a barrier for getting into events for the rest of the year for IFP events. Whatever your ranking was at the beginning of the year decides what you can play. At the end of the year if you are over 2300 points you will be a pro for 2013 in IFP. For me it does make a difference so I have forfeited people out who are 200 points above and played in a lower division at Worlds. This is because it distorts the results. For example if I had not forfeited Blake out of pro events at Worlds, he would now have enough points to be in the top 15 Master list. So Blake, Nhu, Teddy Sprouse and a couple of other may have been taken out of consideration in events they played in that violated the 200 point rule.

Warren, I do not have an opinion on the starting points for Johnny Horton and Nathan Winter but the changes in their points give you a good idea of how they did at Worlds. If Mr. Horton forfeited out of Open Singles, I can remove him from consideration. I am assuming, he signed up for open singles and played and lost early on. Nathan lasted one round longer than his seeding in open singles and gained 16 points and lost 12 points in pro singles by exiting one round too early.
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Ahmad Shadman"

---

I don't see where it says in there this 900/900 point rule.

[deliverance]

The points are irrelevant unless you're approaching the next tier. I'm pretty sure Jesse would beat me > 65% of the time, so the 900/900 (nor Jesse points) are necessarily accurate. The numbers will work themselves out after a bit of participation, example:

900 means I'm going to be seeded higher than I probably should be, if I exit out of rounds earlier than expected, if I understand correctly, I would lose more points since my contribution to that event would be based on that number. Jesse similarly, might finish higher than me with less starting points, so he has more to gain.

What does that tell you? That snapshots that are this infrequent are only a baseline and you can't trust the numbers more than +- 400 since this calculation can't account for individual improvements.

Which leads you to this conclusion: ignore the points and let your results speak for themselves.

[Jester]

Watch, Kevin will seed you using 900/900 but then when you go to your first IFP you will be back to 700/700.

[Jester]

8 days until go time

[Jon]

Ya let's get some serious money games going after league tonight to practice! I really want to play with new balls!!!!

[deliverance]

Let's talk about transportation too tonight.

Jon, I'll have some new balls with me we could run through a table at the end of the night while we play some games and then swap them back out after.

[Jon]

K sounds good, ya we'll talk tonight!

[Jester]

MONAY GAMEZ!

[buckyislucky]

hey looking for parnters in expert, pro, open, and master limited

help a brother out

[rustyspurs]

Bucky, I am looking for partners for expert and pro. Vern Rose.
Let me kmow if you want to team up for one preferrabley expert. I play both positions.
Let me know I like to arrange these before I get there.
Message me on this board.

[SheldonYu]

hey guys, does anyone have an extra spot in their room? i don't mind sleeping on the floor as long as i can maybe get spotted some extra pillows/sheets

pm me if you can spare a floor or something!

[Jester]

sheldon pm deliverance, his name is casti and I think there is 2 in his room right now but don't quote me on it