5 bar defense

[Pixel]

Another great series of posts....

http://www.foosballboard.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5523

[5barwarrior]

no links, cut and paste to preserve the knowledge.

[jpguywatchout]

yeah stupidhead.

[Paul]

I like the no-move defence.

[Pixel]

In the time it took you to write "cut and paste" you could have built the Eiffel Tower (which, let's face it, was pretty easy...the French did it) AND cut and paste the thing yourself.

Paul, I know you do. Most new players fight that concept when first introduced to them. You were like "wait...WAIT. You're saying I get to be LAZY? And it's EFFECTIVE? HELLZ YEA."

[5barwarrior]

yes, but if I teach a man to fish...

[Paul]

In the time it took you to write "cut and paste" you could have built the Eiffel Tower (which, let's face it, was pretty easy...the French did it) AND cut and paste the thing yourself.

Paul, I know you do. Most new players fight that concept when first introduced to them. You were like "wait...WAIT. You're saying I get to be LAZY? And it's EFFECTIVE? HELLZ YEA."

the only problem is Merv has a pretty good lane...

[D.Y.Plug]

This post was full of pretty cool concepts and maybe should be read by those who haven't yet. So I'll bump it and paste at the same time. S.M.R.T

PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:22 pm Post subject: five rod defense Reply with quote
This was a topic on our minnesota board recently. Just wondering what kind of advice there would be on the big board for it. Here was the first post.

So Dave and I were talking about Defensive 5 bars on Tuesday. I think this is a great subject to talk about.
I was wondering if anyone would like to share their personal opinions on their best methods of this?
Dave and I agree that when defending, if your wrong, you want to be really wrong. That says that you are comitted to the pass you believe the opposition is trying to complete. I guess I am leading this discussion on a higher level. You have to assume that your opponent will always catch their pass flawlessly. When you think of the local things going on around here, there are a ton of mistakes made in every match that you just don't see in a top 10 in open dubs at worlds. So to be completely wrong is better than being kind of wrong, because at least you would have blocked the pass if they would have chosen that pass.
C'mon people, put up some thoughts!
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Bill Lotridge



Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 42


PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:53 am Post subject: Reply with quote
I’m not a forward player, but I think I can contribute to this topic since defense is a concept, regardless of where it’s being applied. To that point, you’re correct, if you’re going to be wrong, be wrong on purpose. In other words, have a game plan, know exactly what you’re doing and why. This type of defense is what I had learned and refer to as “bait and cover”. The key to applying this defense is knowing what to bait for and how long to bait before you commit. This will change depending on the skill level of the opponent and the passing sequence they’re using.

Not that I’m trying to point out the obvious, but here’s a couple of basic points for any player to know…

1. In order to defend against a pass (or shot), you need to know how to execute it…understand its strengths and limitations.
2. A wall pass is the easiest to execute and catch.
3. Most players, under pressure, will attempt what’s easiest to them (see above).
4. A good number of players, under pressure, will give away the pass they’re going to attempt by the way they position their three bar. This might be very subtle with your Pro / Pro-Masters but if you look hard enough, you’ll find some truth to this.

I could go on, but my post has a better chance of getting read if I keep it short, so, my final thoughts…

A good offense will almost always beat a good defense. There’s no shame in not making a block. The shame is repeating the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.

So, mix it up…be unpredictable.
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MI-pullkicker



Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 241
Location: Charlotte, MI

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:04 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Tony Bacon would look like he's not even trying hard to block your pass. He would however catch the ball on the wall most of the time. keeping the ball after you block it is hard to do. What good is a block if you give the ball back. Work hard to disrupt the lane pass and try to flex back and catch the wall pass. Thats what I do , but then I'm only a high ranked expert not a pro.
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FooserX



Joined: 08 Jan 2009
Posts: 361


PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:16 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
My philosophy on defense is to have a handful of defenses, and rotate them throughout the course of the ball/match...that way you're never giving the passer a pattern to figure out. And if one of your defenses happens to be working, then obviously you use that one more.

Example:

1. Fast shuffle. Lets the passer know he's going to have to pass fast and on the money to beat you. Great for lower ranks or against players who crumble.

2. Fast shuffle, but occasionally freeze on a hole. Same as #1, only now he's going to try to time a hole when you freeze. Basically he'll waste time waiting for you to stop. But will you??

3. Slow methodical thinking defense. Lane or wall...you're on one always, but the duration changes. Also, the switch from lane to wall can be fast so it's not easy. This one takes practice but is crucial to learn as it truly epitomizes getting in your opponents head.

4. Fast methodical thinking defense. Same as #3, but you're disguising your defense by shuffling the and flicking your men. It's a different look, but you're not being random like #1. Plus the flicking makes the passer think you're moving off the hole.

5. Mix of 3 and 4.

6. Slow moving timeable defense...lane...wall...lane...wall. Rythmic and easily timeable so the defender wastes time studying the pattern...wondering if you're seriously going to give him such an easy D. Then after a few seconds, change.

The key to a lot of this is to make the defender waste time trying to time a pattern. He only gets 10 seconds, so if you can get him to look at a pattern for 5 seconds...you're halfway there.

7. Stick on wall for a second or 2, and then do a quick bob to the lane. Repeat. This is basically telling your opponent that he's going to have to go lane.

Once you've established where he's going, now you just have to guess when. Sometimes you can completely stay in the lane after a few bobs, and the opponent is so used to you sticking on the wall, he's not able to pull the trigger on the wall. Or he'll think you're moving back to stick on the wall...so he'll pass into your men.

Once again, you've shown the opposing forward your defense. Now you can flick your man as you're stuck on the wall...and watch the passer pass right into your man on the wall.

This works on a ton of people for me as most people love the wall. It also works well on big points as lots of people shy away from the lane on big points.

8. Race D.

etc etc...


So right there are 8 difference 5 bar defenses to use on someone. It's an art, and there are no "rules" on when to use them. Sometimes I'll need all of them, and sometimes just a few, and sometimes just one if I really know how the opponent thinks.

Rotate the defenses every few seconds if need be, but all the while, you know 100% how each defense works on its own, so you're always in control with what you're doing. This makes your defense random looking, but it's not.

Your goal though should be to stop that pass every single time. You're not just waving your 5 bar futile. Worst case scenario...you should aim on making the odds 50/50. Lane or wall. That's all passing is...you just have to win the guess.

There's a ton more to this philosophy, such as learning tells and giveaways and tendencies...but I can only write so much.

And of course remember defense rule #1 - if something isn't working ---> change! Also, after every match, analyze why your opponent was successful. You need to grow as a player each match.

X

btw, I agree about being wrong. If you're wrong, be wrong, but be committed.
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deadbarfoos



Joined: 18 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:23 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
thanks X ! Smile ,ive seen some of these work for me ,but this is a learning process for me , i have crappy 5D (i wish i was a lefty Razz )
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Last edited by deadbarfoos on Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kaross



Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 381


PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:01 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Mostly the same concepts apply to 5 man defense that apply to defense overall. Generally I agree with what FooserX says, but a little bit of addition on the mental part:

When playing someone who's game you are unfamiliar with, I like to show a relatively slow and simple defense at first. What's important is not to get steals off the bat - the goal here is to show them a defense that's relatively easy to read, to get a sense of their series.

What you want to try to learn is:

1) What are their favorite options? The typical player has 2-4 favored ways to hit holes - for instance a typical tic-tac passer might have a wall, high lane, and second man.

2) Are they hole passers or man passers? Some people like to pass at where you aren't (expecting you to stay off) and others like to pass at the guy (expecting you to move.) And some people aren't really looking at the defense, they just execute.

3) Timing... how long do they usually take after setting up to decide where to go?

4) Do they have any tendencies on how they decide where to go? Some people like to alternate / cycle through options, others will keep going to the same place if it worked before.... others keep trying the same hole until it works.

If you are doing something that is fast, their perception of what holes you are leaving might be different from yours, so a slow D is most effective for trying to figure these things out.

Now, armed with this information, you can then try out various types of movements like FooserX mentioned above. The goal here is to figure out what movements of your defense most effectively make them pass in such a way that you can predict when and where they are going.

So... let's take a very simple example:

Player A is a brush passer with two basic options (brush up and brush down) that he uses 90%+ of the time. Assume that there are no tells in the execution and you can't race it.

You determine that they like to pass at holes, and that they will usually go to the first hole they see when they toss the ball for their pass, and they like to alternate up / down but without any bias towards an option based on the result of the previous pass.

Given the above, I would:
1) While they are setting up, try to show them a fast shuffling D but with an obvious bias towards wall or lane, whichever they didn't go to last time. This usually gets them to think that the opposite hole will be open.
2) Once they are set and ready to pass, show them the same D until the moment they toss the ball. Then, as soon as they toss, freeze the defense in the opposite hole that you showed bias towards.
3) After a few blocks, they might clue in and start passing towards where you were shuffling. So then you have to adjust and stay there sometimes. They will probably have a pattern at which they go outside of their normal read, so now you figure that out.

And so on...
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Hack Daddy



Joined: 22 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:59 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I personally prefer to run a sort of timing pattern. Sticking with wall more than half the time. If they go wall when i jump to lane then I attempt to race it to the wall and potentially make them thing I jarred them. Whether I jar is a matter of perspective but then begins the banter back and forth and trust me.... it will end up in you getting a call that is benificial to you or make them drop a pass as they are so freakin worried about puppy dog eyeing the ref for the call.

That's my take on it.
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dlgumby



Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Posts: 95


PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:46 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Just got done working 5 straight long days so, haven't had the time or energy to post.

My original point when I was talking to Mike was more of a philosophy about blocking on the five row then anything else. I can't tell you how many players are constantly trying to get everything and chasing every pass. The other thing I see is people not being decisive about what they want to block. Those are both a recipe for disaster against a top notch five bar.

Obviously your going to race or react to the passer if that is possible. Sometimes it is but, often times it is not. The other thing to keep in mind is that you had better do something with those blocks when you get them. What I mean by that is if your on the right hole you want to swat it back hard or catch it and not either let it dribble through off your man (how frustrating is that?) or harmlessly bounce off your man only to give them another opportunity to pass through your defense. The likelihood of this undesirable scenario is increased substantially when your chasing everything or unprepared when it does hit your man.

When you are playing defense try and have a plan. Visualize what pass it is you want to block and then DON'T LET YOUR OPPONENT DICTATE WHERE YOUR GOING TO BE! Whatever it is your trying to do, don't get talked out of it by your opponent. I know that's easier said then done but, guess what? Blocking a great five bar series isn't easy and they are going to get the ball. It's important to remember that you can't be everywhere so, you better make the most of your opportunities. Also, whatever your plan is it's important that you don't become too predictable.

There is obviously a lot more to it then this. Everything from picking up on tells, tendencies and just plain having a feel for what your opponent is doing. Also, its important to have good man placement and knowing what your covering. Quick reactions can be an advantage. Especially if you know how to use them but, not everyone is blessed with the quickest reactions. Quick reactions can also be a hinderance if you don't know how to use them and if your opponent knows how to exploit them.

The bottom line is that five man defense is hard to teach and really requires a lot of table time against good competition to get better at it. My favorite five man defense is a strong offense. Nothing puts more pressure on your opponent then you getting your passes through at a high percentage.

Dave Gummeson
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moya_tielens



Joined: 19 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:02 am Post subject: Reply with quote
>Blocking a great five bar series isn't easy and they are going to get the ball. It's important to remember that you can't be everywhere so, you better make the most of your opportunities.

To emphasize on that, the most important thing about five bar defence is quite the same as goalie defence. Learn the opponent's strenghts and weaknesses and use and save them for when they are really important. A pass is as good as a block and how they play it. Like in poker, you read how an opponent plays their good hand better than they play their weak, although all are readable.

You learn throughout the game where their strengths and weaknesses are and you begin to tell them where you want them to pass as the game progresses.

Towards the end of the game, you should have a pretty good idea of where they are going to go and when. That should be devised throughout the match with all the varying kinds of defences which have been mentioned. What separates the better from the best is that they will pretty much almost know without a doubt which pass you are going to go to when the going gets toughest.

If you have a smart five...you will know this going into the match, if you don't, you will probably get picked off near the end. If you have a smart five bar d, you will either make them hit a really great pass...or take it away.

As many have said previously, do what you do for a purpose. A pass is as good as a block, so don't rule it out. Just make sure what you do is for a reason and be aware of what you are doing and why.

There's soooo much more to get into, timing and whatnot, but the reality of five bar d is when it's push comes to shove. I guess there are two ways of dealing with this...make them do something they are not comfy with..(semi pro level) or push them into doing something you expect them to do and try to be there before them, which includes only partially half blocking the pass back to your goalie. (When I'm aggressive I always tell my goalie to be extra aware of my "half blocks.":p)

At Pro Master level, if it comes down to match ball with it on their five, the most you can do is make them hit a really really well thought out great pass. I've stolen some and it's an amazing feeling actually. Almost as good as winning in a strange way.

Five bar d is amazing...if you know how to play it right.

Sometimes it's harder to play a lesser ranked player because they aren't thinking as much a PM, which is frustrating too. Random is random without reason.

Some other things to think about....

*hugs*

Moya
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bigcity



Joined: 31 Dec 2008
Posts: 147


PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:45 am Post subject: Reply with quote
my first rule to 5bar d is hang your most recent jacket on the coin mech and ask if they want to actually play this match! if this doesnt work then refer to rookrigues X or especially the world champ dave's posts!!!


hope this helps!
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Darksidefooser



Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 894


PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:02 am Post subject: Reply with quote
big city tried that in one of our matches but i just asked him who he stole the jacket from and that made my 5 bar d better haha

sun tzu



Joined: 31 Mar 2009
Posts: 135


PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:01 am Post subject: Reply with quote
some of this is a rehash, but for me i think about a few basic things:

1) pay attention -- think and see what they're doing, don't just do a defense

2) know what you're taking away -- u usually can't take away everything, so u need to take away something. this helps u to...

3) get the ball when u get the block -- to me this is the difference between good and great when it comes to 5-bar defense

4) the better u pass, the worse they pass -- this isn't really defense, but it's always a head game... not just x's and o's, but establishing who's in charge