18-Nov-2008, 02:39 PM
I posted a question on the foosball board (http://www.foosballboard.com) about 5-Bar defense and this is the answers I got.
http://foosballboard.com/phpBB/viewtopic...4376#94376
Pretty interesting. Here are some of the posted tips.
ottawafoos: Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:25 pm Post subject: 5 - Bar Defense
A bunch of us from Ottawa traveled to NY state , Hello Syracuse, and had a great time. A comment was made that we all had great offense and could score quite well but we lacked the defense skills to win us matches.
We talked about it during our league night and realized that we don't focus on defense as much as we should. So I am posting here to find out tips on how to improve our defense skills starting with the 5 bar.
Right now my defense is random, hoping to guess what my opponent is doing. But once I get a block I alternate what I am going to cover as they will more than likely switch from wall to lane or from lane to wall. This works reasonably well but there is room for improvement.
What are your suggestions or strategies on 5-bar defense?
Chris
Ottawa Foos
TOSEXY Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:05 am
Random D-fence is good if you know what you are doing. You should always know what you are doing.
When playing D-fence you have to try and pick apart your opponent. Find out what is his Strength and Weekness. Does he pass in two seconds or is he passing at 9 seconds.
One of the most important is he man passing or is he hole passing. Keeping it simple makes it easier to concentrate. The best player i find like to hole pass. They see it and go for it. You must realize that you cant stop them all so you have to set them up. Try and figure out pattern, time, take off, and remember what you see in your 5 bar is what he sees.
When someone passes you that is the time for you to remember what he did. Do not think, "aww what the Puck. He passed me again." Especially in Doubles that is the time for you to analyze your opponent.
Remember the best D-fence is a great O-fence. The more pressure you put on your opponent the better your 5 bar D gets.
_________________
Mario Ariganello
TOSEXY Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:21 am
What i mean by man passing is, is he waiting for you to come off the hole. Or is he just going straight for the hole.
Dave Gummeson is incredible at doing this. He will waite by passing 5-4 5-3 and waite till you come of the hole. He makes you decide. I have seen him go 9 Lanes in arrow. I have also seen him go wall 9 times in a row.
You have to anticapate.
_________________
Mario Ariganello
acefooser1 Posted:
http://www.foosballboard.com/phpBB/viewt...ar+defense
gitablok2 Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:17 pm
Okay, I'm no Mike Archer or a Denis Ory for that matter, but maybe they can expand on what I say here. First, toosexy's first post is good but I'm thinking you want to know how to find the weaknesses and tendencies right? Step into my defensive mind and I will try to explain, and yes, it's a scary place. Very Happy
This is gonna sound crazy so stick with me here. You don't need to be able to do every style of pass but you do need to know how they work. Here in Dallas we always say in order to block a pass or shot you need to know how it works. Why? If you have an understanding of a particular pass, then you will have an understanding of what your opponent is looking for to be successful in that series of passes. In other words, you can show him a D, and you will have somewhat an idea of what he is looking at and planning to do. One of the best things about understanding about how a pass should work is you will be able to identify what really is a good pass, but more importantly you will be able to identify the bad ones even when they look on the surface as being good. What I mean by this statement is someone could have a quick wall twice as fast as Gummy's(not)but, if his stick lane is twice as slow and looks different from the quick wall, how good is his quick wall now?
My first indicator is LOCATION. Where is the ball in relation to a man or the wall or both. Ex., your opp. is using a brush series and the ball is within a ball of the wall whether it be on approach or leaving the wall, no matter what fake he gives you which area do you block? My answer would be to sit with your man a half width off the wall pointed forward. Why right? Remember, understand the pass. If he attempts to brush down from that location, he is not high enough to make the pass steep enough to go in behind you(aka, the Tommy Gun down), and if he tries to go between the man and the wall, the pointing of the man cuts the area he is trying to get to because once again the ball is too close to the wall. You now effectively block 3 passes if you hold your ground with very little movement of your man because of your opp. choice to pass from this location, a shallow up, a down between no. 1 and 2, and a down between 1 and the wall. Ex., if you don't understand it, Tommy Adkisson can beat you with only 3 passes 1 series. In a brush set he will toss and do a steep down between your 1 and 2 with you planted on the wall to his 3, stay there and he will do from the same location, the quick up right next to your 2, come out to block the quick up and he will do the down around your 1 and the wall. What Tommy understands is for this series to work properly, he must contact the ball every time at least 2in. off the wall for it to work, if "you" don't, he will eat you alive. Know how a series and pass works.
The POINTING OF THE MAN, much debated, here's my take. I only use this technique against brush passers for the reasons stated above. Brush passers read angular holes so you can effectively cut those angles by pointing your guy. Illustration, stand as if you were passing and place the ball on a angle up say only an inch off the wall as if you just passed the ball to catch it. Now take the def. 5 and place it directly in front of the ball with the guy pointed back. The pass is still there isn't it? Now point said guy and take a look. That pass just disappeared didn't it? Pointing the guy forward affects the release point of the pass, pointing the guy backwards affects the capture point of the pass. That's why when you see people attack an up, the man is usually pointed forward to prevent the release, in passive defensive mode, like you are looking for a wall, the man is usually tilted back to stop the capture point of the ball. On the other hand, stick passers like Gummy, Billy, Denis Ory and others, read perpendicular holes. The hole they see is usually the one they attack without hesitation. In other words, you need to be not near but in the hole they attack. The release and capture points are not at an angle so tilting the man either direction will have little effect since there is no angle to block. I use the tilting movement of my man to simulate lateral movement out of a hole of which I think they are looking at to maybe fool them.
Also, because you don't have all day, being able to recognize the style of pass is important to know what to look for. Ex., ball in front of rod= probable good stick and good chip passes but weak brushes, ball directly under rod= good sticks with good chips but better brushes, ball just slightly behind rod= good sticks, good chips, good brushes. The last two styles are very dangerous passers because in a blink of an eye, they can get the ball in optimum position to do any style pass. The last style, ball well behind the rod= brush passer only for the most part, weaker chips and sticks because the ball is so far back, but very deceptive aka Steve Murray, Steve Mohs. RECOGNITION.
As you see, this discussion can get very involved and detailed and I am only scratching the surface. Hopefully I have given you a starting point. This advice does and will work because it's just basic defense at it's most simple application. As I have stated above, understand what is happening to you and you will then know what adjustments to make. If you say you have a good offensive 5, use that to your advantage to realize what your opponent is also looking for. Learn what pass can be done from a certain location to another out of a certain set and apply this to your defense. Make it a percentage exercise. If the ball is near the wall, what are the percentages of my opp. completing a down or a shallow up if I just sit here and move a little with my man pointed out if he is doing a brush? I would take my chances any day on that small percentage. Apply these simple techniques as your base and then you will start to notice your opp. weaknesses and tendencies. When you run up against someone who seems not to have a weakness you will know what to ADJUST to because you have a good defensive base. Once you do this, it becomes a CHESS GAME which is what you want against the better passers. Make the them GUESS instead of REACTING. YOU not them dictate the location of the pass.
Just my 43 cents, Arch, Denis, expansion please. Shocked Shocked
P.S. Mmmmmmmmmmmm......Turducken.
_________________
Ice, block you later.
moya_tielens Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:34 pm
K..a different perspective on what Mario mentioned in 5 bar d.
I really do believe 5 bar d is one of the main points of the game and just as important in a 3-2 game as a good offense.
Yes, you do have to learn an opponent's strengeth's and weaknesses..that's a given, but timing is the bigger and more important area of understanding. Understanding defense, of course, also pertains to undertanding offense, so take a look at how you pass yourself and how you are reading your opponent's d.
K..this is so much easier explained on a table because people have different terminology and so many different ways of understanding what people are saying...anyhow..
...when Mario talks about passing to the hole and passing to the man and anticipating movement, he is talking about timing. I learned a long time ago that people have different timing. I realized about myself that I NATURALLY (wanna make that clear cause it's a big difference to do something instinctually and to be aware of WHY you are doing it) pass to the man and anticipate movement. Now..I also consider this "backwards timing" in a sort, because why would someone pass at their opponent's man?
Ok..gawsh..this is soooo much easier to show on a table. If you were to time someone in the most basic sense. (Do this with someone. You might be surprised at the outcome, but you will understand your natural timing.) Start with the ball on the second 5 bar man, then bring it to the wall and bump off the first man and keep doing that while having your spotter bring his 5 bar to the wall at the same time as you do. Keep doing that until you are ready to pass and just let yourself naturally pass where you would. (I wanted to do a wall pass every time, which of course, went right into their man.)
Now, have your spotter reverse their timing on you and have them be in the lane when you are on the wall and pass when you're ready and look at where you pass. (I ended up doing a lane pass or a chip pass...which is really retarded if you think about it. Razz) However, I did learn what my NATURAL timing was.
When I first start a match, there are many things you need to be aware of as you go, but I start off with a bit of a clean slate, so to speak, and try to play naturally, as this is how we play our best. Then you learn how to make adjustments to that if necessary. Sometimes someone is naturally on your timing and sometimes not, therefore you may have to adjust your timing because they are naturally on yours or have adapted.
In the beginning, I read and check for my opponent's "timing" and "off timing." Meaning, I will bring the ball to the wall and fake to see if they are blocking the wall as I bring the ball down. Then I will check their "off timing" which means I will do something like a tic tac to the wall to change up the timing to see where they end up. When it comes to the point of having to make a decision about "where" to pass I literally have 4 options available to me depending on whether I pass on my "on timing" or my "off timing." I decide which. If they go to the wall when I do, I can either beat them to the hole, or pass to the lane, or I can decide to pass on their "off timing" which means do a tic tac wall. Argggg....soooo confusing on paper. Razz
Anyhow..all this does actually pertain to defense, believe it or not. You really need to be aware of someone's timing above all else.
You know you have 10 seconds in order to decide and pass. A lot of times people will read and check two times before they pass. This is a big tell that most people fall into. As the game progresses, and people fall into patterns the reads and passes become a little quicker as people have started to figured out their opponents.
I will generally give a defense for my opponent to read the first check, and then give them something else for them to read on the second check..(they might not fake even. Usually it takes like 3 seconds for the first read and 3 or less for the second read if someone takes their time, then they have 6 seconds left to decide and pass.)..then I will do something a lil unorthodox to mess with their heads and see if they change their mind and/or make them have to make a rushed decision, which can lead to misexecution. AND...that, my friends is what this game all comes down to. Who can respond the best under pressure? You can't be in all places at all times, so you do things that will ensure the least amount of consistency from your opponents.
Ugh...shoulda written a book. Sorey to those who wanted a quick fix without having to read a ton. It's really hard to put something like this down on paper. Next time I'm around and yer interested...come see me and I can explain on a table. It really is quite illuminating and can change your world. Ask Mr. Atha..he knows what I'm talking bout. Wink
*hugs*
Moya
Oh..and P.S. I think 5 bar d is where I win a lot of my matches.
There are key points in a game, which most know...(the main one being 3-2 for those that don't). That is what I call "the steal" and everything after is "the kill." Everything that we do should be designed to steal or take those key points. You are learning and setting your opponent up to make those points the most in your favor as possible.
Wow..way too much strategy for a Friday morning. biggrin.gif Really love it actually.
http://foosballboard.com/phpBB/viewtopic...4376#94376
Pretty interesting. Here are some of the posted tips.
ottawafoos: Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:25 pm Post subject: 5 - Bar Defense
A bunch of us from Ottawa traveled to NY state , Hello Syracuse, and had a great time. A comment was made that we all had great offense and could score quite well but we lacked the defense skills to win us matches.
We talked about it during our league night and realized that we don't focus on defense as much as we should. So I am posting here to find out tips on how to improve our defense skills starting with the 5 bar.
Right now my defense is random, hoping to guess what my opponent is doing. But once I get a block I alternate what I am going to cover as they will more than likely switch from wall to lane or from lane to wall. This works reasonably well but there is room for improvement.
What are your suggestions or strategies on 5-bar defense?
Chris
Ottawa Foos
TOSEXY Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:05 am
Random D-fence is good if you know what you are doing. You should always know what you are doing.
When playing D-fence you have to try and pick apart your opponent. Find out what is his Strength and Weekness. Does he pass in two seconds or is he passing at 9 seconds.
One of the most important is he man passing or is he hole passing. Keeping it simple makes it easier to concentrate. The best player i find like to hole pass. They see it and go for it. You must realize that you cant stop them all so you have to set them up. Try and figure out pattern, time, take off, and remember what you see in your 5 bar is what he sees.
When someone passes you that is the time for you to remember what he did. Do not think, "aww what the Puck. He passed me again." Especially in Doubles that is the time for you to analyze your opponent.
Remember the best D-fence is a great O-fence. The more pressure you put on your opponent the better your 5 bar D gets.
_________________
Mario Ariganello
TOSEXY Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:21 am
What i mean by man passing is, is he waiting for you to come off the hole. Or is he just going straight for the hole.
Dave Gummeson is incredible at doing this. He will waite by passing 5-4 5-3 and waite till you come of the hole. He makes you decide. I have seen him go 9 Lanes in arrow. I have also seen him go wall 9 times in a row.
You have to anticapate.
_________________
Mario Ariganello
acefooser1 Posted:
http://www.foosballboard.com/phpBB/viewt...ar+defense
gitablok2 Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:17 pm
Okay, I'm no Mike Archer or a Denis Ory for that matter, but maybe they can expand on what I say here. First, toosexy's first post is good but I'm thinking you want to know how to find the weaknesses and tendencies right? Step into my defensive mind and I will try to explain, and yes, it's a scary place. Very Happy
This is gonna sound crazy so stick with me here. You don't need to be able to do every style of pass but you do need to know how they work. Here in Dallas we always say in order to block a pass or shot you need to know how it works. Why? If you have an understanding of a particular pass, then you will have an understanding of what your opponent is looking for to be successful in that series of passes. In other words, you can show him a D, and you will have somewhat an idea of what he is looking at and planning to do. One of the best things about understanding about how a pass should work is you will be able to identify what really is a good pass, but more importantly you will be able to identify the bad ones even when they look on the surface as being good. What I mean by this statement is someone could have a quick wall twice as fast as Gummy's(not)but, if his stick lane is twice as slow and looks different from the quick wall, how good is his quick wall now?
My first indicator is LOCATION. Where is the ball in relation to a man or the wall or both. Ex., your opp. is using a brush series and the ball is within a ball of the wall whether it be on approach or leaving the wall, no matter what fake he gives you which area do you block? My answer would be to sit with your man a half width off the wall pointed forward. Why right? Remember, understand the pass. If he attempts to brush down from that location, he is not high enough to make the pass steep enough to go in behind you(aka, the Tommy Gun down), and if he tries to go between the man and the wall, the pointing of the man cuts the area he is trying to get to because once again the ball is too close to the wall. You now effectively block 3 passes if you hold your ground with very little movement of your man because of your opp. choice to pass from this location, a shallow up, a down between no. 1 and 2, and a down between 1 and the wall. Ex., if you don't understand it, Tommy Adkisson can beat you with only 3 passes 1 series. In a brush set he will toss and do a steep down between your 1 and 2 with you planted on the wall to his 3, stay there and he will do from the same location, the quick up right next to your 2, come out to block the quick up and he will do the down around your 1 and the wall. What Tommy understands is for this series to work properly, he must contact the ball every time at least 2in. off the wall for it to work, if "you" don't, he will eat you alive. Know how a series and pass works.
The POINTING OF THE MAN, much debated, here's my take. I only use this technique against brush passers for the reasons stated above. Brush passers read angular holes so you can effectively cut those angles by pointing your guy. Illustration, stand as if you were passing and place the ball on a angle up say only an inch off the wall as if you just passed the ball to catch it. Now take the def. 5 and place it directly in front of the ball with the guy pointed back. The pass is still there isn't it? Now point said guy and take a look. That pass just disappeared didn't it? Pointing the guy forward affects the release point of the pass, pointing the guy backwards affects the capture point of the pass. That's why when you see people attack an up, the man is usually pointed forward to prevent the release, in passive defensive mode, like you are looking for a wall, the man is usually tilted back to stop the capture point of the ball. On the other hand, stick passers like Gummy, Billy, Denis Ory and others, read perpendicular holes. The hole they see is usually the one they attack without hesitation. In other words, you need to be not near but in the hole they attack. The release and capture points are not at an angle so tilting the man either direction will have little effect since there is no angle to block. I use the tilting movement of my man to simulate lateral movement out of a hole of which I think they are looking at to maybe fool them.
Also, because you don't have all day, being able to recognize the style of pass is important to know what to look for. Ex., ball in front of rod= probable good stick and good chip passes but weak brushes, ball directly under rod= good sticks with good chips but better brushes, ball just slightly behind rod= good sticks, good chips, good brushes. The last two styles are very dangerous passers because in a blink of an eye, they can get the ball in optimum position to do any style pass. The last style, ball well behind the rod= brush passer only for the most part, weaker chips and sticks because the ball is so far back, but very deceptive aka Steve Murray, Steve Mohs. RECOGNITION.
As you see, this discussion can get very involved and detailed and I am only scratching the surface. Hopefully I have given you a starting point. This advice does and will work because it's just basic defense at it's most simple application. As I have stated above, understand what is happening to you and you will then know what adjustments to make. If you say you have a good offensive 5, use that to your advantage to realize what your opponent is also looking for. Learn what pass can be done from a certain location to another out of a certain set and apply this to your defense. Make it a percentage exercise. If the ball is near the wall, what are the percentages of my opp. completing a down or a shallow up if I just sit here and move a little with my man pointed out if he is doing a brush? I would take my chances any day on that small percentage. Apply these simple techniques as your base and then you will start to notice your opp. weaknesses and tendencies. When you run up against someone who seems not to have a weakness you will know what to ADJUST to because you have a good defensive base. Once you do this, it becomes a CHESS GAME which is what you want against the better passers. Make the them GUESS instead of REACTING. YOU not them dictate the location of the pass.
Just my 43 cents, Arch, Denis, expansion please. Shocked Shocked
P.S. Mmmmmmmmmmmm......Turducken.
_________________
Ice, block you later.
moya_tielens Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:34 pm
K..a different perspective on what Mario mentioned in 5 bar d.
I really do believe 5 bar d is one of the main points of the game and just as important in a 3-2 game as a good offense.
Yes, you do have to learn an opponent's strengeth's and weaknesses..that's a given, but timing is the bigger and more important area of understanding. Understanding defense, of course, also pertains to undertanding offense, so take a look at how you pass yourself and how you are reading your opponent's d.
K..this is so much easier explained on a table because people have different terminology and so many different ways of understanding what people are saying...anyhow..
...when Mario talks about passing to the hole and passing to the man and anticipating movement, he is talking about timing. I learned a long time ago that people have different timing. I realized about myself that I NATURALLY (wanna make that clear cause it's a big difference to do something instinctually and to be aware of WHY you are doing it) pass to the man and anticipate movement. Now..I also consider this "backwards timing" in a sort, because why would someone pass at their opponent's man?
Ok..gawsh..this is soooo much easier to show on a table. If you were to time someone in the most basic sense. (Do this with someone. You might be surprised at the outcome, but you will understand your natural timing.) Start with the ball on the second 5 bar man, then bring it to the wall and bump off the first man and keep doing that while having your spotter bring his 5 bar to the wall at the same time as you do. Keep doing that until you are ready to pass and just let yourself naturally pass where you would. (I wanted to do a wall pass every time, which of course, went right into their man.)
Now, have your spotter reverse their timing on you and have them be in the lane when you are on the wall and pass when you're ready and look at where you pass. (I ended up doing a lane pass or a chip pass...which is really retarded if you think about it. Razz) However, I did learn what my NATURAL timing was.
When I first start a match, there are many things you need to be aware of as you go, but I start off with a bit of a clean slate, so to speak, and try to play naturally, as this is how we play our best. Then you learn how to make adjustments to that if necessary. Sometimes someone is naturally on your timing and sometimes not, therefore you may have to adjust your timing because they are naturally on yours or have adapted.
In the beginning, I read and check for my opponent's "timing" and "off timing." Meaning, I will bring the ball to the wall and fake to see if they are blocking the wall as I bring the ball down. Then I will check their "off timing" which means I will do something like a tic tac to the wall to change up the timing to see where they end up. When it comes to the point of having to make a decision about "where" to pass I literally have 4 options available to me depending on whether I pass on my "on timing" or my "off timing." I decide which. If they go to the wall when I do, I can either beat them to the hole, or pass to the lane, or I can decide to pass on their "off timing" which means do a tic tac wall. Argggg....soooo confusing on paper. Razz
Anyhow..all this does actually pertain to defense, believe it or not. You really need to be aware of someone's timing above all else.
You know you have 10 seconds in order to decide and pass. A lot of times people will read and check two times before they pass. This is a big tell that most people fall into. As the game progresses, and people fall into patterns the reads and passes become a little quicker as people have started to figured out their opponents.
I will generally give a defense for my opponent to read the first check, and then give them something else for them to read on the second check..(they might not fake even. Usually it takes like 3 seconds for the first read and 3 or less for the second read if someone takes their time, then they have 6 seconds left to decide and pass.)..then I will do something a lil unorthodox to mess with their heads and see if they change their mind and/or make them have to make a rushed decision, which can lead to misexecution. AND...that, my friends is what this game all comes down to. Who can respond the best under pressure? You can't be in all places at all times, so you do things that will ensure the least amount of consistency from your opponents.
Ugh...shoulda written a book. Sorey to those who wanted a quick fix without having to read a ton. It's really hard to put something like this down on paper. Next time I'm around and yer interested...come see me and I can explain on a table. It really is quite illuminating and can change your world. Ask Mr. Atha..he knows what I'm talking bout. Wink
*hugs*
Moya
Oh..and P.S. I think 5 bar d is where I win a lot of my matches.
There are key points in a game, which most know...(the main one being 3-2 for those that don't). That is what I call "the steal" and everything after is "the kill." Everything that we do should be designed to steal or take those key points. You are learning and setting your opponent up to make those points the most in your favor as possible.
Wow..way too much strategy for a Friday morning. biggrin.gif Really love it actually.
"Man's way to God is with beer in hand." - some Belgium monk